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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#1421 - 2013-09-02 01:36:36 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:


First, CCP should take the work that they've done on the proposed Marauders (the fancy new animations, siege-module-but-not concept, etc), ditch the MJD bonus and all pretenses of PvP usefulness, add a small damage bonus, further-reduce their mobility (make them handle more like a little capital ship than a battleship) and rename the ships "Vanguards" or something and play up the fact that they were designed specifically for destroying pirate encampments or whatever in their description. Go hog-wild and make the ultimate PvE battleship, while trading off qualities that would render them useful for PvP (mobility, buffer tank, ability to receive remote reps, etc) in exchange. Pick a specialization for this T2 hull and stick to it.

Then, having actually created a specialized T2 BS hull for PvE, take the Marauder class title, take re-skins of the formerly-tier 3 battleships, and make a class that's actually useful for PvP in hostile space. Make these ships similar to what blackops battleships are currently, but without the jump portal generators and with an obvious combat focus instead of the hodgepodge of attributes that current blops bs have:

- T1ish resists and average-to-light tanks: smaller than normal tanks for a battleship, with T1 resists to ensure that they can't be used effectively in large fleets with logi support
- Jump drive equipped, can jump to covert cynos
- CANNOT fit jump portal generators or covert cynos or take covert bridges
- 4 weapons, 75-100% damage boost from role bonus for 7-8 effective weapons
- 7 highs
- Bonuses to normal cloaking devices: -100% targeting delay after decloaking, -100% to cloak scan resolution penalty
- Takes blackops BS' current role bonus to ship velocity while cloaked
- Large drone bays regardless of available bandwidth, to allow for plenty of spare flights of drones
- Generous cargo bays (on the large side of the normal battleship range) plus fuel and ammunition bays, to allow the ship to carry enough consumables for extended use without resupplying
- Unusually high agility / speed for battleship hulls (make them handle like a battlecruiser)
- Damage output should be on the low end of the battleship damage spectrum (as blops BS are currently) in another effort to offset their mobility advantages

These ships would actually be good for using as heavier dps support in hostile space, having bonuses that allow them to stay a step ahead of their opponents, ambushing targets and hiding when necessary, while trading some of the damage output and tank that you'd normally get from a T1 battleship in exchange. They should be less at home in a straight up brawl than a T1 battleship (which will hopefully keep them within their niche role as part of a blackops gang rather than presenting a viable ship for large-scale deployment), but should really excel (for a battleship, anyway) at their "Marauding" role-- lurking about in hostile space and providing the muscle to quickly snuff out a target and run off again when opportunities present themselves. They won't be as evasive or mobile as something like a nano-HAC, but will provide more staying power in exchange.

Finally, revamp Blackops battleships to actually fit into more of a support role, instead of the current arrangement:

- 4 weapons, 50% role bonus to damage for 6 effective turrets
- 7-8 highslots
- Jump drive equipped
- Fit covert ops cloaks (same as recon ships-- no scan res penalty, targeting delay after decloaking)
- Battlecruiser-like hitpoints
- Battlecruiser-like agility
- Miniature SMA sized to fit maybe a cruiser + a frigate, or several frigate hulls
- Fitting service accessible by one fleet member at a time-- force this to be an out-of-combat feature by making it only active when no modules are activated on the blackops battleship
- Large cargo hold, large fuel bay (larger than Marauders), large consumables bay (ammo, paste, charges, etc... maybe code it so that anchorable bubbles will go in as well)
- Bonuses to debuffs-- web range, neut range, etc much like recon hulls, but with smaller bonuses (leave recons as the last word in providing debuff support from stand-off ranges)
- Possibly a probing bonus a la recons as well?
- Mediocre to poor damage output for a battleship (6 effective turrets, single weapon bonus, tweak powergrid output and fitting requirements of covert jump portal generator such that it's difficult to fit a full rack of top-tier large guns as well as a bunch of neuts / support items in the utility highs)

Basically the idea here is to steer blackops away from DPS-oriented fits, making them a little more fragile than they currently are and reducing their damage output, while giving them a useful role to play as a provider of logistical and combat support to their gangs. Blackops will be better for sneaking about, doing recon tasks, will be able to bridge covert ships, and will be able to provide out-of-combat refitting support to their gang, as well as being able to haul along significantly more fuel and consumables than any other covert ship short of a blockade runner. When participating in combat directly, I'd prefer to see blackops function in more of a support role than they do currently, providing debuffs to inflict on hostile ships rather than significant DPS contributions-- they should be *part* of a gang composition for operating in hostile space, not the primary component.

Such a reboot of the T2 battleship lineup would result in a useful PvE-specialized ship, a useful direct combat PvP ship specialized for use in hostile space, and a sort of gang support ship specialized for use in hostile space to compliment a marauding T2 BS / recon / bomber group.


I completely agree with what a Goon wrote...

Somewhere, something has gone drastically wrong. Well written, full of good ideas. I like it!

Well done, Sir!
Cade Windstalker
#1422 - 2013-09-02 02:13:51 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:


First, CCP should take the work that they've done on the proposed Marauders (the fancy new animations, siege-module-but-not concept, etc), ditch the MJD bonus and all pretenses of PvP usefulness, add a small damage bonus, further-reduce their mobility (make them handle more like a little capital ship than a battleship) and rename the ships "Vanguards" or something and play up the fact that they were designed specifically for destroying pirate encampments or whatever in their description. Go hog-wild and make the ultimate PvE battleship, while trading off qualities that would render them useful for PvP (mobility, buffer tank, ability to receive remote reps, etc) in exchange. Pick a specialization for this T2 hull and stick to it.


I'm not sure why you dislike the MJD bonus since the MJD is already seeing use in PvE more than PvP ( not to knock its PvP applications, it's just really good for PvE). Anything that's really useful in PvE is going to have at least some PvP applicability. Most of the problems with the Marauders for PvP are also reasons they're not used over Pirate ships in PvE, damage not withstanding.

Ganthrithor wrote:
Black-Ops stuff


Sorry, I'd quote the full thing but it's puts me well over the post limit.

So, I'm not sure if you've heard (and I wish I had a source for this) but CCP originally announced intent to split Black-Ops into combat and support focused rolls, with the support one keeping bonuses to bridging and the combat one focused more on being a stealth Battleship focused on mobility, more or less what you're proposing here.

Combine this with the long-running desire for a KK painted Rokh if nothing else and I'd give it good odds that we'll get the hulls your after in the Black-Ops revamp.

I don't think I agree with giving them fitting support, that's probably a bit too powerful for a combat sub-cap, but I do think we'll see a focus on mobility and agility over DPS, since they will want to differentiate them from the Pirate Battleships which seem poised to slot into an Attack Battleship roll opposite the tanking but poor mobility Marauders.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1423 - 2013-09-02 03:27:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunnax Aurelius
BRING ON THE GOLEM!!! 12K DPS OF CAPLESS TANK AND 210K OF CAPLESS ENGAGEMENT RANGE!!!

P.S. The claimed tank is with crystals and stong blue pills

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Tasha Saisima
Doomheim
#1424 - 2013-09-02 04:01:13 UTC
These changes are bad and whoever came up with it should feel bad.
Feffri
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#1425 - 2013-09-02 05:26:04 UTC
this idea is terrible for all the reasons stated. It adds only to high sec and nothing for null and low. If there was such a thing as solo battleship pvp in high and low sec this might be cool but as stands it it nothing more then bait in low and high. I agree with simply making the sensor strength bigger so that these ships and their utility highs can be used in pvp. I think back to the drawing board is in line... why not give them the ability to join black ops and a black ops combat ships or just make them not suck for pvp in general.

Either way there are better things that can be done with these ships then this hair brained terrible idea.
That Seems Legit
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1426 - 2013-09-02 05:31:45 UTC
Yeah these really dont seem too well thought out. I really wish they'd go back to the drawing board. They'd be good for wormholes, maybe.

How bout keep the transforming idea... but make them transform into melee monsters. Massive bonus to web range and velocity, and allow them to use their tractor beams on PLAYERS ships. Add a decrease, yes a decrease to their guns range. An increase to tracking though.

Marauders grabbing ships, pulling them in, punching them in the face repeatedly then salvaging the wreck. Poorly set up gatecampers trying to run screaming from a couple of marauders yanking them in for the kill. God, how gamechangingly awesome would that be?

"oh god marauders run!"

Yep. My ideas much better. You're welcome ccp. Get to implementing.

P.S. I want my kronos renamed to Devastator when you implement my melee module.

Damns - you're ugly - and that's a compliment from me. -Large Collidable Object Seeking donations for facial reconstructive surgery, every little bit helps!

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#1427 - 2013-09-02 05:47:06 UTC
All i see is add MOAR PVP and MOAR DPS.

I dont See how this is add more favor to the Game, Most People in this Thread just want another Pirate BS and Claim their Idea good.

Does anyone have something fresh to offer too?

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Nikolai Vodkov
Pro Synergy
#1428 - 2013-09-02 05:49:35 UTC
Why don't people realize that being able to apply DPS better = More DPS? You guys rely on paper DPS of EFT too much.

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CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1429 - 2013-09-02 05:51:36 UTC  |  Edited by: CanI haveyourstuff
Nikolai Vodkov wrote:
Why don't people realize that being able to apply DPS better = More DPS? You guys rely on paper DPS of EFT too much.


I dont see golem applying dps better in future... do you see?

I personally dont see them new marauders worth it... skill and money investment is ridiculous compared to other ships that basically can do everything same.

if anything else, marauders should do 25-30% more dps, have some anchilary shield boost stuff bonuses with that huge cargo.
Have sensor str on bar with everything else.


there you go, reasonable pvp/pve brawler thats worth getting into since it will take god damn year to fly one properly but only couple of months to fly some imba faction or pirate ship.

Bastion on PVE? yes please lvl4.. maybe lvl5 - please come kill me.
Bastion in PVP? yes please, I'll be right here while your buds arrive to finish me off....

or CCP means PEEVEEPEEE? you mean marauder fleets that bastion up and hold hands while shoot at some random ass boring tower?

comon guys you should come up with smth better than that.
Nikolai Vodkov
Pro Synergy
#1430 - 2013-09-02 06:12:48 UTC
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Nikolai Vodkov wrote:
Why don't people realize that being able to apply DPS better = More DPS? You guys rely on paper DPS of EFT too much.


I dont see golem applying dps better in future... do you see?


I do actually. It will deliver the payload 25% faster. Not as game changing as Optimal + Falloff bonus but Golems can already do 1400 DPS with overload. Now it will be able to project that DPS further.

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Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1431 - 2013-09-02 06:13:07 UTC
Nikolai Vodkov wrote:
Why don't people realize that being able to apply DPS better = More DPS? You guys rely on paper DPS of EFT too much.


having more dps to apply means if you are where you should be, you do more dps. Applying more of the little dps you have, means its easier to apply that smaller amount of dps.... but if you didnt apply it before, you were doing it wrong.
Gargantoi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1432 - 2013-09-02 06:17:10 UTC
I only see a few problems ...first off ..kronos + paladin get used into pvp well somethimes ..with the mini station status they wont be able to track ships that orbit them @ 500 meters ..because u know ..no more -90% webs ..so those bonuses should remain second off ..boost dps on golem a little bit to be in order with the rest of the marauders third off ..judging by the new bonuses + module + slot layout u just made marauders into farming ships..like enter a 10/10 ..deploy ..and shoot while tanking the 2131321 dps...also u ask for feedback like in any other treath but the outcome will be the same ..u will deploy the patch with the bonuses + module u guys want ..so in conclusion +1 for ratting ..-1 for pvp ..i give this patch +5 for the creativity ideea of the module + deploying visuals of the ship ..but -5 for the lack of pvp involvement
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1433 - 2013-09-02 06:18:35 UTC
Nikolai Vodkov wrote:
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Nikolai Vodkov wrote:
Why don't people realize that being able to apply DPS better = More DPS? You guys rely on paper DPS of EFT too much.


I dont see golem applying dps better in future... do you see?


I do actually. It will deliver the payload 25% faster. Not as game changing as Optimal + Falloff bonus but Golems can already do 1400 DPS with overload. Now it will be able to project that DPS further.



that 25% faster is so trivial and meaningless. DPS number will remain same.
val Tartess
Fallen RaVens
#1434 - 2013-09-02 06:35:50 UTC
I am not sure, if this idea has been posted already, but here I go:


Marauder are used atm in PVE only. So its lvl4 missions and sometimes incursions.
As I am n incursion pilot, lets talk about marauders in incursions:

Maraduers are only seen in HQ sites in incursions.
For a marauder to be usefull it has to get from one gate to another (tpph), and actually BE at spawn sites (Torp fitted) (nrf).
Thats why it needs n mwd or

  • MJD where you can jump TO someone/gate within 100km. eg. jump TO a gate 70km away

Otherwise, there will be no Torp fitted golems anymore!

The next point is tanking Damage. We are in a tcrc and are at the tower bash.
  • Either i can still be remote repped, or I am able to tank the sites damage (which would be overpowered).


Otherwise, with the speed nerf and shield nerf, marauders will not be seen in incursions anymore.

Feel free to comment or send me ingame mails with feedback.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1435 - 2013-09-02 06:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Battle Cube wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I don't have experience in incursions, but will you be able to do incursions with a fleet of pure Golem/Vargur? If you can ditch all the logistics pilots for Marauders that's a massive increase in DPS and therefore ISK/hour. Just how much damage do you have to tank in an Incursion if stuff switches to you? If you fully pimp these two ships out with Pith-A invulns and Pith-X SBAs you can get 20,000 DPS sustained/40,000 DPS burst tank on each ship while still maintaining 1200+ DPS.

The Golem can actually attain a hilarious 100,000 DPS burst tank if you overload everything with deadspace/crystals/bluepill.


No. The number of logistics is actually not hugely significant. Marauders will not be able to handle the alpha and incoming dps of incursions. There have already been spider tanked fleets without logi but it wasn't worth it over a normal fleet. The other problem is even a fantastic burst tank wont work out - sansha room aggro can last a long time, even throughout an entire site. Even if you turn off bastion mode in order to get repped - in that moment you are already damaged and are losing resists. Additionally if you use the MJD then you are getting out of logi rep range.

In the end it might be feasable maybe in VGs... maybe..... but there would be no reason for it. Too much risk, no benifit

kind of like how its technically possible to do VGs with orcas with drones.....



Dunno but, sn't a pith a-type invuln the tank present on most shiny incursion ships? Doesn't that translate to something like 100k EHP (linked) and an effective rep of arond 8000? Even in HQ sites, the alpha isn't that significant. A bastioned marauder's linked repoutput should easily be enough, though... Unlike vindicators, you do not have a 90% web bonus.

Guess that if for incursions, it might be significant if marauders (with their mostly awesome projectio/application) were able to pick up speed, bastion up and then glide through the room :>

...

Can't see why you would pick a marauder over a pirate BS or a (beam-)legion.

PS: Give tracking / missile accuracy back to the bastion module! Their dps is great, not the best, but great. They have long range, so where is ridiculous tracking \o/
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#1436 - 2013-09-02 07:11:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Pookoko
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
YaSiS wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.

Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed.


Who cares about this?
You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays.

Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship.

All part of the plan, I assume.


+1


I'm not sure I follow this Shocked - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.

When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns.

However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.


I'm all up for interesting changes, and this definitely is something new, but I do have some practical concerns regarding the use of rails for Kronos in PvE situations.

1) From actual experience, I do know that rail Kronos has hard time applying DPS on Angel battleships inside 10km range without 90% webs.

2) Dunno how to link images, so here are some EFT numbers but I'm sure you guys at CCP would calculate this much ebtter and accurately

a) At full transversal: 425mm Rail Kronos vs. Machariel (at max base speed)
- 4x T2 425 Rails + 3 T2 Mag Stab, Max skills, Faction Antimatter does 761 DPS on paper (with 2 x Tracking Scripted T2 Tracking Comps)
- at range of 10km this drops down to around 480 DPS
- at range of 5Km, this drops down to around 140 DPS

b) Of course, Javelin would up the numbers, so here are Javelin numbers using same setup
- about 560 DPS at 10km
- about 230 DPS at 5km

As you can see, even with Javelin the damage application of Rails vs. close orbiting Angel BS is horrible. And this is vs. BS targets. Once the target size gets smaller, such as BC or Cruiser, the Rail Kronos DPS will be much less and will have to rely on drones to kill cruiser sized ships.

Of course,

1) New MJD bonus and optimal/fall off bonus will help when using blasters and using blasters for Angel rats would mitigate the issue

2) You can always snipe the ships when they are far away (as you've mentioned)

But I just wanted to ask and confirm whether this really is the actual intention of CCP to push Kronos to this direction of using Bastion + Blaster way of playing instead of using rails.

What I'm concerned is that currently rail Kronos is only viable vs. Angel missions mostly owing to 90% web, but after the change the only viable option would be to use blasters (without the web bonus).

I can live with whatever the change that occurs, but just wanted to know whether CCP has overlooked use of Rail Kronos or if this is a new direction that the ship is going to be pushed for intentionally.

Thank you for your time.
Zoe Israfil
#1437 - 2013-09-02 07:28:26 UTC
I am extremely excited about these new ships! I think they are actually quite well thought out and cool to boot!

I'd like to address the "needs moar deeps" argument; I will also ramble into pvp applications.

These ships have a major focus on projection and self-sustainability. Projection is poorly understood. I would recommend people refer to the EVE UNI wiki on turret damage on the subject as it is quite well written.

The fact that these ships will be able to shoot further and track better (or similar for missiles) means that their applied dps will be SUBSTANTIALLY higher against targets. A look at the Golem is particularly terrifying, as it receives a bonus to target painting and explosion velocity. The effect of a dual tp bastion Golem with precision missiles is something that I'm personally looking forward to very much. I understand that on paper the DPS of these beasts might appear low, but considering that under many "normal" conditions minnie pilots (like myself) are losing ~20 - 40 % of our paper dps against targets (autocannons -> falloff is dumb), I think the bonus to projection will more than make up for it.

Onto PVP:
We might be witnessing the rise of a new class of anti- cruiser/battle cruiser ship class. Because of their insane projection bonuses these ships may prove to be extremely effective against smaller targets. With multiple bonuses to projection and small gang helpers (loki webbing, frigs scramming) to further increase the ability of bastions to hit they might be able to get near perfect projection on relatively small ships. PLEASE NOTE I HAVE NOT DONE THE MATH WITH ANY PRECISION AND I WOULD LOVE FOR SOMEONE TO POST NUMBERS ON HOW ACCURATE MY ABOVE STATEMENT IS!

I personally think that as they stand now they almost have more value as a pvp ship than pve. I think they will be absolutely crazy fun to fly in both pvp and pve. The idea of a "sieged" ship in highsec/missions is awesome. The ability to tank as they can is awesome. Damage application is hugely important and these guys will be kings of it. The stationary dynamic will vastly redefine the current pvp/pve landscape and will be a fantastic change.

My rose tinted glasses are on, these ships are absolutely amazing. (New to forums be gentle)
marVLs
#1438 - 2013-09-02 07:28:34 UTC
What's the sense of keeping TP bonus on Golem when You (CCP) planning to bring new modules for missilesQuestion

srlyAttention who will use TP when he can fit tracking computer (for missiles) module?
Cade Windstalker
#1439 - 2013-09-02 07:31:25 UTC
val Tartess wrote:
I am not sure, if this idea has been posted already, but here I go:


Marauder are used atm in PVE only. So its lvl4 missions and sometimes incursions.
As I am n incursion pilot, lets talk about marauders in incursions:

Maraduers are only seen in HQ sites in incursions.
For a marauder to be usefull it has to get from one gate to another (tpph), and actually BE at spawn sites (Torp fitted) (nrf).
Thats why it needs n mwd or

  • MJD where you can jump TO someone/gate within 100km. eg. jump TO a gate 70km away

Otherwise, there will be no Torp fitted golems anymore!

The next point is tanking Damage. We are in a tcrc and are at the tower bash.
  • Either i can still be remote repped, or I am able to tank the sites damage (which would be overpowered).


Otherwise, with the speed nerf and shield nerf, marauders will not be seen in incursions anymore.

Feel free to comment or send me ingame mails with feedback.


So, for one you seem to only be talking about the Golem, for another no one is forcing you to use the Bastion module. Other than that the ship's stats aren't changing all that much. You can still fit and run a MWD or AB without running out of capacitor much better than many other ships, especially if you fit Energy Transfers in your spare highs and cap chain with another marauder.

Lloyd Roses wrote:

Dunno but, sn't a pith a-type invuln the tank present on most shiny incursion ships? Doesn't that translate to something like 100k EHP (linked) and an effective rep of arond 8000? Even in HQ sites, the alpha isn't that significant. A bastioned marauder's linked repoutput should easily be enough, though... Unlike vindicators, you do not have a 90% web bonus.

Guess that if for incursions, it might be significant if marauders (with their mostly awesome projectio/application) were able to pick up speed, bastion up and then glide through the room :>

...

Can't see why you would pick a marauder over a pirate BS or a (beam-)legion.

PS: Give tracking / missile accuracy back to the bastion module! Their dps is great, not the best, but great. They have long range, so where is ridiculous tracking \o/


I'd hardly say it's on "most" incursion ships. Your tank tends to only be as shiny as it needs to be to be safe.

Depends what you mean by "significant alpha"

The Vindicator seems likely to lose its web bonus as well.

The most significant thing about these new Marauders is going to be their 4 utility highs which can be used for spare cap chains as well as to power things like MWDs.

A Marauder is better affected by reps because of higher base resists even without Bastion.

Your tracking comes from needing less tank in Bastion mode, meaning you can drop a tank mod or two for extra tracking or damage application mods.
Cade Windstalker
#1440 - 2013-09-02 07:38:53 UTC
marVLs wrote:
What's the sense of keeping TP bonus on Golem when You (CCP) planning to bring new modules for missilesQuestion

srlyAttention who will use TP when he can fit tracking computer (for missiles) module?


People who understand that having one stacking penalized module to Explosion Radius and one TP is better than two of the aforementioned modules and that if their bonus is lower than the TP the TP is going to be flat better in many situations, especially ones where you have other people who can benefit from said TP's effects.

Pookoko wrote:

I'm all up for interesting changes, and this definitely is something new, but I do have some practical concerns regarding the use of rails for Kronos in PvE situations.

1) From actual experience, I do know that rail Kronos has hard time applying DPS on Angel battleships inside 10km range without 90% webs.

2) Dunno how to link images, so here are some EFT numbers but I'm sure you guys at CCP would calculate this much ebtter and accurately

a) At full transversal: 425mm Rail Kronos vs. Machariel (at max base speed)
- 4x T2 425 Rails + 3 T2 Mag Stab, Max skills, Faction Antimatter does 761 DPS on paper
- at range of 10km this drops down to around 480 DPS
- at range of 5Km, this drops down to around 140 DPS

b) Of course, Javelin would up the numbers, so here are Javelin numbers using same setup
- about 560 DPS at 10km
- about 230 DPS at 5km

As you can see, even with Javelin the damage application of Rails vs. close orbiting Angel BS is horrible. And this is vs. BS targets. Once the target size gets smaller, such as BC or Cruiser, the Rail Kronos DPS will be much less and will have to rely on drones to kill cruiser sized ships.

Of course,

1) New MJD bonus and optimal/fall off bonus will help when using blasters and using blasters for Angel rats would mitigate the issue

2) You can always snipe the ships when they are far away (as you've mentioned)

But I just wanted to ask and confirm whether this really is the actual intention of CCP to push Kronos to this direction of using Bastion + Blaster way of playing instead of using rails.

What I'm concerned is that currently rail Kronos is only viable vs. Angel missions mostly owing to 90% web, but after the change the only viable option would be to use blasters (without the web bonus).

I can live with whatever the change that occurs, but just wanted to know whether CCP has overlooked use of Rail Kronos or if this is a new direction that the ship is going to be pushed for intentionally.

Thank you for your time.


Ytterbium pointed out that a Kronus with Null and Bastion can get to 60km Optimal+Falloff which hardly seems to suggest a focus on Rails exclusively. With longer effective blaster range and the relatively close ranges of Angel ship orbits I would say that standing still and blapping Angels is going to be as viable as ever.

Also, as you said for Rails you have the MJD to slide away and rain fire from a distance where tracking is not an issue.