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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
#1361 - 2013-09-01 17:46:38 UTC
Gah'Matar wrote:
That new skill should be called "Castle Doctrine".

The Description should also refer to some obscure law from some place that used to be called "Texas".



As a person born, raised, and removed from Texas: I approve of this wholeheartedly.
Kaeden Dourhand
Raven's Sway
#1362 - 2013-09-01 18:10:49 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
Since this hull has not been touched in many many years, I'm sort of scared that when the new changes stick, it will probably not get touched again, like, ever. Would be nice if we get a large majority happy with changes, hence I would prefer this suckers stay on SiSi only until they get tested to death. I've been trying to skill up just for this, but multiple BS V's and support/weapon skills take a ... while.

If players have gone this long without Marauder changes, I'm sure a BIT longer won't kill them.


QFT.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1363 - 2013-09-01 18:13:04 UTC
I'm in favor of all theses changes, just responding to fenistill:

fenistil wrote:


DSpite, have you ever seen solo 10 of 10s being done? Or actually havens and sanctums are kind of tough to do solo. Now you could sit in small haven at the spawn point in your Vargur with 100km rnage and destroy everything with a t2 medium shield booster providing all the tank you need.


Every 10/10 except Blood Raider Naval Shipyard is easily soloable in ships like Rattlesnakes and Tengus (and now with the MJD, all lots of other ships). i know because I've done all of them.

I already sit still with a machariel in havens and only move in sanctums to get closer to rats, all with a medium faction booster fit and not having to lock myself down for someone to catch me. If sanctums and havens are hard to tank, there's something wrong with your fit.
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1364 - 2013-09-01 18:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nano Quantum

The idea seems to be a solution in search of a problem. The main driving reason(s) given by CCP is that you wish to expand the use of the Marauders from PVE focused ships to a dual role into PVP use. The current proposed changes simply do not fulfill that. The main problem I learned about when I was a brand spanking new pilot and sought to learn to one day pvp in a Golem was a two-fold problem that plagues the Marauders as a viable PVP ship. The first and most hindering aspect for PVP use of all Marauders is their extremely weak sensor strength. The second is their relatively weaker dps compared to the cost of the hulls of other ships in their price range(s). This new bastion solves only half the problem while creating an entirely new one of complete immobility.
The Golem and all Marauders in general are already very slow thus justifying the tractor range and speed bonus that tractors get on these ships. Making them slower to artificially create a need for the MJD is just something that should not be done. Pilots out to fly the ships as they like without being herded into some fixed fit just cause you like to see pilots using the MJD more. If anything make the MJD a variable distance module and you might get your wish of seeing more of them used effectively. The change while drastic and essentially fixing one aspect of why Marauders are not used for pvp by making them immune to EW under bastion mode does not solve the second reason which is they will die to half competent pilots quite easily.
They will be big fish in a barrel that regenerate their bodies, but die once they run out of calories to burn(capacitor). This is not a bad thing entirely, but makes them good at one thing and that is bait ships. I suggest that if you really want to see Marauders used in PVP you simply have to increase sensor strength by an amount that would make them difficult to jam by all but skilled and fitted dedicated EW ships. That is one of the main reasons to never use them to PVP ever. The second problem is dps or more importantly applied dps.

The fact that a damage bonus is missing on the new bastion mode is an obvious and glaring issue with Marauders now if the changes stay as they are. Marauders do not so much lack in the tank department as they lack in the applied dps. Marauders as they are now tank well enough on their own for their tanks not being the issue for not being used for PVP their damage is. Increasing the effective applied dps on these ships would see their use in PVP more likely and viable alternative to Faction/Pirate battleships. The drone capacity decrease is also poorly served as the current changes lower the full sets of of drones one can carry to combat smaller and faster ships. The bandwidth change is not as crippling and effectively locks them out from using drones as an effective backup weapon system so I don't entirely disagree, but just makes them less worth for their main role as PVE ships. To end my rant i will just say that the proposed changes while seemingly impressive and pvp enabling are hardly that and will only highlight the obvious deficiencies with the Marauders class as a whole for viable PVP.Current changes make for great and long KM gang kills and bait ships. Yeah they will see more PVP use initially, but once they prove how niche their use will snow dive.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1365 - 2013-09-01 18:21:20 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Here is a counter-proposal:

"The marauder class battleship is an evolution of tried and tested hulls, designed for extended sorties behind enemy lines. Marauders focus on dealing damage and evading capture by the enemies of the empire. As such, marauders have built in technology that gives them:

5% bonus to base speed per level
18% per level reduction in effectiveness of inbound webifiers
Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers.

(note, they still may not enter warp if disrupted or scrambled)

Emissions from these bulky and unstable high-tech propulsion units has a debilitating effect on sensor arrays and thus the sensor strengths of these ships is known to be weak, leaving them susceptible to battlefield interference. (sensor strength unchanged)"

Web bonuses replaced with 5%/level cap recharge bonus.

Now the marauder can carry on PVEing nicely, has a chance to slip through gate camps/get back to gate, can apply a little battlefield dps until neutralised with ECM and can slip away - justifying the price tag.

It can also get between mission gates more quickly, so isk/hr goes up a little. The extra cap allows use of MWD for better positioning with short range weapons.

Now what do I buy? A vindicator/machariel that does PVE very quickly but which if caught, must fight and die? Or a marauder which is not overly suited to PVP, but can generally slip away if things are not going well?



How the hell does a PVPer catch this thing if it can MJD out of trouble every single time?

"Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers."

That is MASSIVE!


no mate. Micro WARP drive, so you can burn back to gate. Not micro JUMP drive
:-)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#1366 - 2013-09-01 18:24:00 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Here is a counter-proposal:

"The marauder class battleship is an evolution of tried and tested hulls, designed for extended sorties behind enemy lines. Marauders focus on dealing damage and evading capture by the enemies of the empire. As such, marauders have built in technology that gives them:

5% bonus to base speed per level
18% per level reduction in effectiveness of inbound webifiers
Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers.

(note, they still may not enter warp if disrupted or scrambled)

Emissions from these bulky and unstable high-tech propulsion units has a debilitating effect on sensor arrays and thus the sensor strengths of these ships is known to be weak, leaving them susceptible to battlefield interference. (sensor strength unchanged)"

Web bonuses replaced with 5%/level cap recharge bonus.

Now the marauder can carry on PVEing nicely, has a chance to slip through gate camps/get back to gate, can apply a little battlefield dps until neutralised with ECM and can slip away - justifying the price tag.

It can also get between mission gates more quickly, so isk/hr goes up a little. The extra cap allows use of MWD for better positioning with short range weapons.

Now what do I buy? A vindicator/machariel that does PVE very quickly but which if caught, must fight and die? Or a marauder which is not overly suited to PVP, but can generally slip away if things are not going well?


and ye wonder why ccp ignore you...

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#1367 - 2013-09-01 18:27:25 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


no mate. Micro WARP drive, so you can burn back to gate. Not micro JUMP drive
:-)


Even worse..... The other changes he suggested would diminish webbing effects on the ship. Even then.... How would one stop one of these ships from getting away?

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1368 - 2013-09-01 18:31:36 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:

How the hell does a PVPer catch this thing if it can MJD out of trouble every single time?

"Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers."

That is MASSIVE!


scanners and/or fitting for long range

jump past me I still shoot you jump away I have a warpin in seconds
MBizon Osis
Doomheim
#1369 - 2013-09-01 18:36:34 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Meyr wrote:
I'm thinking that a few Carriers and Dreads at all IV, and able to be fully insured, will be preferable to an equal number of Marauders (even at all V), in the eyes of most 0.0 alliance leaders or FC's.

Honestly, I'm not sure why CCP feels the need to go in this direction. There has been ample need for a higher-end PVE ship for years, as evidenced by the way these ships are used. There are any number of hulls that are very good at PVP, but absolutely suck rocks at PVE. If you're okay with that, it stands to reason that you should be equally happy with a bare few ships that are too expensive for true PVP, but work well as a PVE investment.

If you want a way for your Goon buddies to grief hisec carebears, how about simply creating a new hull category, like you did with Tier 3 BC's, and leave what had been a marginally successful hull series focused upon its original purpose - turning rats into ISK.

Unless you're going to revamp the gate-to-gate footprint of half of the mission maps, your proposed changes are worse than useless. Micro Jump Drives will put you 40 kilometers PAST the gate, decreased mobility makes getting to the next gate an even more lengthy proposition (but I'm guessing you're okay with that, since it gives the mission gankers more time to scan down and kill those evil mission runners), you take away the drone bays (REALLY? ONE flight of Medium Drones for a Gallente battleship? At long last, have you no shame?), no added CPU (meaning that your gankers will still get sexy drops), and you expect the mission-running player base to be happy?

The only ones happy with this are your true target audience - Goons, and those like them, who hate everyone they refer to as 'carebears', and who go out of their way to grief them. You've given them the perfect platform with which to grief small, non-aligned, 2 & 3-man industrial corps doing T2 invention in a hisec POS.

The Law of Unintended Consequences - look it up.


Meyr, it is a waste of time even discussing this.
The pandemic legion guy is involved in wrecking this ship class, and he HATES PvE.
He is used to massive moon goo as income, and has zero use for anyone who grinds to pay for anything. (This is the same guy who said on the forums that anyone who did not vote in the CSM elections he does not have to listen to)
This is the same guy who wrecked small and heavy drones in missions, and ignored over 100 pages of people screaming how bad an idea it was, (and still is). He will ignore any feedback on this, just as he does about any PvE mechanic.

I use a Paladin in Incursions, and it is losing about 8% DPS(120 DPS lost from going from 3 Garde II"s to 1), its ability to web frigates in close (2 webs at 90% effectiveness slowed down a ship to 1% of its base speed, now it will be 16%, a 16 fold drop in effectiveness). The improvement in optimal range? Who ******* cares? I was already shooting stuff in optimal at 20 km with a properly fit Paladin. Further, it will be impossible to micromanage the timing on that bastion module (60-64 seconds minimum timer) to have it time out the precise moment the incursion finishes, so we will have entire fleets sitting their holding their manparts, while all the timers run out, before moving to the next site, hence another big loss in ISK/hour.

When you factor in the 30 plus % nerf to armour bonuses , and the 30 plus % nerf to web range bonuses next week, and THEN the loss of the OGB (which the pandemic legion guy has guaranteed is happening soon), anyone using a Paladin or Kronos in an Incursion is righteously screwed in armour incursion fleets.

This was another premeditated attack on high sec income, since the null sec cartels apparently can't make enough money now, and need to drive more serfs into null for the cartels to maintain their income stream. (btw, listen to the Crossing Zebra's industry podcast near the end where one of the goon CSM members says that the moon goo drop in prices is a temporary thing)


+1
Razefummel
Unknown Dimension
#1370 - 2013-09-01 18:38:55 UTC
Would someone PLEASE explain where this change has something comon with balancing ?
Just give the Marauder Class Battleships more Sensorstreingh and the PvP-Balancing is absolutly done.
just saying.

Greetings

Raze

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Unknown Dimension Forum
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1371 - 2013-09-01 18:41:15 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


no mate. Micro WARP drive, so you can burn back to gate. Not micro JUMP drive
:-)


Even worse..... The other changes he suggested would diminish webbing effects on the ship. Even then.... How would one stop one of these ships from getting away?

I agree this would be a bad change and would drastically change mechanics. My view is like their class name suggest Marauders ought to be Marauding rather than being turned into fixed gun and missile batteries. If anything id like to see this new bastion mode be more like a marauding mode where speed and damage is increased letting them do their thing called marauding.
Tanik Fera
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1372 - 2013-09-01 18:45:15 UTC
I believe it was mentioned there would be medium and small MJDs introduced in the future. Is this still in the works? As far as for PVP will the MJD bonus on marauders be made less relevant in 6 months, a year?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#1373 - 2013-09-01 18:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1374 - 2013-09-01 18:53:56 UTC
Razefummel wrote:
Would someone PLEASE explain where this change has something comon with balancing ?
Just give the Marauder Class Battleships more Sensorstreingh and the PvP-Balancing is absolutly done.
just saying.

Greetings

Raze

I agree and perhaps some more base speed and/or bonus prop module(s).
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#1375 - 2013-09-01 18:58:27 UTC
Came looking for marauders, found seebees, left disappointed.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1376 - 2013-09-01 18:58:53 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


no mate. Micro WARP drive, so you can burn back to gate. Not micro JUMP drive
:-)


Even worse..... The other changes he suggested would diminish webbing effects on the ship. Even then.... How would one stop one of these ships from getting away?


That's rather the point. It gives PVE players a chance to do pve in hostile space....

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1377 - 2013-09-01 19:02:47 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Came looking for marauders, found seebees, left disappointed.

Perhaps CCP should change the name of the class of ships to seebees and then the class would make more sense.
Just Lilly
#1378 - 2013-09-01 19:15:36 UTC
CCP should add +2 warpstrength to all marauders, they are suppose to be annoying and harassing

+5 warpstrength while in bastion mode

Just for laughs Blink
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Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1379 - 2013-09-01 19:22:30 UTC
Any hope for dev reply on whether or not they are still going in this direction for marauders? :(
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1380 - 2013-09-01 19:24:28 UTC
on a Sunday? sir you have no heart... :)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".