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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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fenistil
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1341 - 2013-09-01 15:41:21 UTC
Mournful, you forget, that these ships cannot move. If the tank cannot be broken, you can just leave the ship there and look for somthing else to shoot. Nieche applications of the marauders I like. You wont see marauders solo gangs unless the FC is a complete moron.

.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1342 - 2013-09-01 15:42:26 UTC
fenistil wrote:
Mournful, you forget, that these ships cannot move. If the tank cannot be broken, you can just leave the ship there and look for somthing else to shoot. Nieche applications of the marauders I like. You wont see marauders solo gangs unless the FC is a complete moron.


I don't forget. Each one will carry a cyno.

It's going to be horrible...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
fenistil
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1343 - 2013-09-01 15:47:18 UTC
Well here is the thing... You are very well aware of what marauders can do. Engage it without proper intel and you deserve the hotdrop.
But cyno can be fitted on pretty much aything. Difference is, that the marauder is more likely to survive.

.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1344 - 2013-09-01 15:57:32 UTC
fenistil wrote:
Well here is the thing... You are very well aware of what marauders can do. Engage it without proper intel and you deserve the hotdrop.
But cyno can be fitted on pretty much aything. Difference is, that the marauder is more likely to survive.


You'd generally worry less about survivability and use cheaper bait and pick your targets as much as possible, if your going to throw a 1bn odd ISK hull in there then there are options even now that can run a mad tank i.e. rattlesnake.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1345 - 2013-09-01 16:00:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
fenistil wrote:
Well here is the thing... You are very well aware of what marauders can do. Engage it without proper intel and you deserve the hotdrop.
But cyno can be fitted on pretty much aything. Difference is, that the marauder is more likely to survive.

So... respectfully... might the game be better served if the dev team tackle the difficult hot-drop problem that makes lowsec skirmishes end in a nasty, non-fun hotdrop before they become good fights?

It seems to me that the (PVE) users of Marauders were not asking for a change.

Nobody likes the game-ending mechanics of the one-sided hot-drop. I'm pretty sure that balancing that would receive widespread and unanimous support.

It seems to me that this proposal adds 4 more ships to the hot-drop arsenal, without improving the lot of PVE marauder pilots or improving PVP tactical gameplay.

It has been mentioned many times in this thread that 'legitimate' use of the bastion module will not (cannot) be made.

It was a nice first try at an idea, but I respectfully feel that the idea is flawed.

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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1346 - 2013-09-01 16:14:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

It has been mentioned many times in this thread that 'legitimate' use of the bastion module will not (cannot) be made.

It was a nice first try at an idea, but I respectfully feel that the idea is flawed.


The idea itself is great - shoehorning it onto marauders is whats ruining it.

Applied to the former tier3 battleship hulls as a new T2 battleship line it has a nice fit, marauders not so much.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#1347 - 2013-09-01 16:21:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Rroff wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

It has been mentioned many times in this thread that 'legitimate' use of the bastion module will not (cannot) be made.

It was a nice first try at an idea, but I respectfully feel that the idea is flawed.


The idea itself is great - shoehorning it onto marauders is whats ruining it.


Hmmmm kinda, i wouldn't say ruining. definitely not flawed.
Waaaaaaaay too early to tell. personally i like it

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1348 - 2013-09-01 16:24:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Rroff wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

It has been mentioned many times in this thread that 'legitimate' use of the bastion module will not (cannot) be made.

It was a nice first try at an idea, but I respectfully feel that the idea is flawed.


The idea itself is great - shoehorning it onto marauders is whats ruining it.


It was a great idea in Medieval times, just before the mass-production of cannons.

The idea of "stand still and build strong walls" has not been valid military doctrine since about 1200AD, and it didn't work that well back then - the defenders starved to death or died of disease.

Modern military doctrine favours mobility, versatility and stealth.

I cannot envisage this changing in the far future. Fast-moving super-strong things are harder to destroy than stationary super-strong things - always will be.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1349 - 2013-09-01 16:39:39 UTC  |  Edited by: The Spod
The ships should be balanced by their topmost min-maxed PVE capability as far as PVE goes to make sure they don't obsolete each other or pirate BS.

DPS with current ranges:
(Assuming all V, 4 faction damage mods, 3 range focused mods and 1 tracking mod)

Golem 1258dps Rage torpedo (26km) or 1070dps CN torpedo (30km)
Kronos 1504dps Void (10+13km), 1348dps CNAM (6+26km) or 1074dps Null (19+37km)
Paladin 1218dps Conflag (20+17km), 1040dps IN gamma (26+20km) or 877dps Scorch (62+20km)
Vargur 1177dps Hail (4+56km), 1054dps RF ammo (4+75km)

With the optimal buff Paladin with Conflagration will reach 27km base optimal.

With the siege mode buff all the ships will be very efficient at 30km-40km range and similiarly effective at 50km far orbit range. However, the Golem is lacking because of it's limited torpedo range and bad damage application with Rage torpedoes.

I would look into improving the Golem siege bonus to missile velocity AND travel time to make the Rage build more viable at PVE ranges. 25% to both missile velocity and fuel when sieged, based on the potential numbers on each of the ships.
Alec Freeman
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1350 - 2013-09-01 16:39:41 UTC
I like this idea.

However i feel it would be vastly improved if Turrets & Missiles where given a Damage bonus rather than tracking / range.

Damage bonus would aid all weapons systems equally and would mean that long range arty / beam / rail platformed marauders would be more interesting.

It would also give them more purpous in PvP as anti capital strike craft and highsec POS bashers.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#1351 - 2013-09-01 16:47:59 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

It has been mentioned many times in this thread that 'legitimate' use of the bastion module will not (cannot) be made.

It was a nice first try at an idea, but I respectfully feel that the idea is flawed.


The idea itself is great - shoehorning it onto marauders is whats ruining it.


It was a great idea in Medieval times, just before the mass-production of cannons.

The idea of "stand still and build strong walls" has not been valid military doctrine since about 1200AD, and it didn't work that well back then - the defenders starved to death or died of disease.

Modern military doctrine favours mobility, versatility and stealth.

I cannot envisage this changing in the far future. Fast-moving super-strong things are harder to destroy than stationary super-strong things - always will be.


POS Force Field disaproves.

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Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1352 - 2013-09-01 16:49:16 UTC
Gwen Ambraelle wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Gwen Ambraelle wrote:
I'm amazed at all the complaining.

These things are going to be great at the following;

- Wormhole Anoms up to C3's (maybe C4's)
- All L4 Missions
- Epic Arc's / COSMOS
- LV5's

I can't speak for DED sites as I've not enough experience, but from what I understand of them, they should great there too.

Any arguments to say that these things are going to be useless in PvE are just beyond me.

And as for PvP, doing WH's anoms gives you lots of that. L5's would do the same.

I can see these things being used all over W-Space.

No ship should be good at everything, asking for that is just silly. But they will excel in some area's, and that's fine.

I say all of of the above as a Pally pilot who is perfectly happy with it as it is now.


Its not that they are useless in PVE, its that other ships are/will be Better, but at a lower cost and sp requirement. The problem is that there isn't anything that makes these worthwhile, no matter how viable they are, at least for *some* pve.


L5 mission solo - What other ship would be more effective?
C3/4 Sites solo - What other ship would be more effective?
Amarr Epic with all their (^^$%$&()*& TD's - What ship would be better?
The Assault with all their ^*%$*&&^ Jammers - What ship would be better?

I could go on, but the point is that if you have the skills, these changes are very intriguing.


L5 solo - stupid? I guess you COULD do it, until someone scans you down and kills your 1b+ immobile bs in lowsec
c3/4 solo - i dont know since i dont do them, you could be right
amarr epic - who cares its an epic you can only do once, yeah sure i'll buy and fit a ship just for that.. XD
the assault - just dont do this mission. Getting this ship for just this mission? id rather just bring a freind or an alt so the jams dont stop both of us
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1353 - 2013-09-01 16:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Battle Cube wrote:
L5 solo - stupid? I guess you COULD do it, until someone scans you down and kills your 1b+ immobile bs in lowsec
c3/4 solo - i dont know since i dont do them, you could be right
amarr epic - who cares its an epic you can only do once, yeah sure i'll buy and fit a ship just for that.. XD
the assault - just dont do this mission. Getting this ship for just this mission? id rather just bring a freind or an alt so the jams dont stop both of us


You'd have to be pretty unlucky to lose it to a scan down in a L5 with a cycle time of 60 seconds if you check dscan constantly. Just cancel the mod if you see combat probes on dscan, remember they have to traverse the acceleration gates after scanning you, it would be pretty difficult for them to get tackle on you within 60sec of probes appearing on your scanner, and most of the time you'll be able to get out a lot faster because there won't be the full 60sec on your module cycle time left when you see the probes.

I'd be much more worried about losing it to a gate camp traveling to and from the mission location. Out of curiosity, can you break gate cloak, prime the MJD, cloak, and then just click cloak off 1sec before you're about to jump to run a lowsec camp?
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1354 - 2013-09-01 16:56:36 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Zaxix wrote:
Supposedly, T2 is specialized and T3 is general. A marauder should be specialized. The tractor bonus has exactly one use: looting in solo PvE. But that is ultimately limited by your cargo bay. You're essentially asking for a ship bonus that will be used for selectively looting wrecks. Of all the other things that might be added to the ship, that one is pretty minor in the greater scheme of things. Any bonus added should reflect specialization. I'd rather have a reduced sig radius or increased sensor strength than a tractor bonus.


You seem to defeat your own argument here. The tractor-bonus is a highly specialized bonus and from looking at the numbers and bonuses it doesn't seem to have factored into their balancing of the hulls. It's being left there because it hurts literally nothing by its presence beyond the sensibilities of a few irate forum posters. It's used by people who already own these ships and works somewhat well with the MJD bonus, this is the very definition of specialized.

The SHIP is supposed to be specialized. As in specialized for a particular use.

BTW, your little argument about T3 fleets is about as flawed as it can be. There are massive T3 fleets. Just looking at your one post and none of the others, it seems pretty obvious you don't do much reading of the news sites, dev posts, or other information sources. Go to TMC and EN24 and read the last two months of battle reports.

Bokononist

 
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1355 - 2013-09-01 17:00:04 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
L5 solo - stupid? I guess you COULD do it, until someone scans you down and kills your 1b+ immobile bs in lowsec
c3/4 solo - i dont know since i dont do them, you could be right
amarr epic - who cares its an epic you can only do once, yeah sure i'll buy and fit a ship just for that.. XD
the assault - just dont do this mission. Getting this ship for just this mission? id rather just bring a freind or an alt so the jams dont stop both of us


You'd have to be pretty unlucky to lose it to a scan down in a L5 with a cycle time of 60 seconds if you check dscan constantly. Just cancel the mod if you see combat probes on dscan, remember they have to traverse the acceleration gates after scanning you, it would be pretty difficult for them to get tackle on you within 60sec of probes appearing on your scanner, and most of the time you'll be able to get out a lot faster because there won't be the full 60sec on your module cycle time left when you see the probes.

I'd be much more worried about losing it to a gate camp traveling to and from the mission location. Out of curiosity, can you break gate cloak, prime the MJD, cloak, and then just click cloak off 1sec before you're about to jump to run a lowsec camp?


Eh. Seeing the rewards of a L5, i wouldnt do them even normally, its obviously way too much risk for almost no reward, even more so if you have to bring a marauder. So yeah, if its niche is L5s, which were already kind of useless, then the new marauders will be likewise pretty much useless

Additionally, beyond the risk, it just wouldnt be FUN to have to constantly check scan over the length of an entire mission
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1356 - 2013-09-01 17:04:30 UTC
Here is a counter-proposal:

"The marauder class battleship is an evolution of tried and tested hulls, designed for extended sorties behind enemy lines. Marauders focus on dealing damage and evading capture by the enemies of the empire. As such, marauders have built in technology that gives them:

5% bonus to base speed per level
18% per level reduction in effectiveness of inbound webifiers
Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers.

(note, they still may not enter warp if disrupted or scrambled)

Emissions from these bulky and unstable high-tech propulsion units has a debilitating effect on sensor arrays and thus the sensor strengths of these ships is known to be weak, leaving them susceptible to battlefield interference. (sensor strength unchanged)"

Web bonuses replaced with 5%/level cap recharge bonus.

Now the marauder can carry on PVEing nicely, has a chance to slip through gate camps/get back to gate, can apply a little battlefield dps until neutralised with ECM and can slip away - justifying the price tag.

It can also get between mission gates more quickly, so isk/hr goes up a little. The extra cap allows use of MWD for better positioning with short range weapons.

Now what do I buy? A vindicator/machariel that does PVE very quickly but which if caught, must fight and die? Or a marauder which is not overly suited to PVP, but can generally slip away if things are not going well?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1357 - 2013-09-01 17:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
The Spod wrote:

With the optimal buff Paladin with Conflagration will reach 27km base optimal.

With the siege mode buff all the ships will be very efficient at 30km-40km range and similiarly effective at 50km far orbit range. However, the Golem is lacking because of it's limited torpedo range and bad damage application with Rage torpedoes.

I would look into improving the Golem siege bonus to missile velocity AND travel time to make the Rage build more viable at PVE ranges. 25% to both missile velocity and fuel when sieged, based on the potential numbers on each of the ships.


They surely don't have to worry to accidently break cruises, with their 200km baserange bastion'ed firing fury. Coupling the still rather short fittings and the 100km MJD-distance indicates that some (midslot?? or) lowslot-application/projection-modules are on the way - else the golem wouldn't have been mentioned in a torpfit. Pretty sure.


fenistil wrote:
It was a concept fit, to prove that it will be possible to have 10k tank marauders.

I am damn sure that WH folks will take advantage of this. Thwy are tight groups with decent pilots usually. Here comes the marauder fleet concept.

DSpite, have you ever seen solo 10 of 10s being done? Or actually havens and sanctums are kind of tough to do solo. Now you could sit in small haven at the spawn point in your Vargur with 100km rnage and destroy everything with a t2 medium shield booster providing all the tank you need.


Yay for pve. I totally cannot judge what those things will do to station games, to gate camps and to solo, I have no idea. Them having not the most buffer and people regularily just undockng *enough* dps or enough neuts (for armorships) to kill you a la carte, or just slowly walking away from your stationary marauder(s) at a camp.

In wormholes, might be cool for fighting on connections crossing c4/c5 to c2/c3 space, kind of limiting you to 3-4 battleships already, and allowing you to run a very fun way organize logistics. Hint: 3 highs, 10 lockable targets, immunity to ewar, 1k+ m³ to carry cap boosters. can't be bumped off a wormhole. So you'd park 2 or three of them on your wormhole, get a CS and a couple Lokis, and you got your basic fleet to deploy :D
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#1358 - 2013-09-01 17:26:35 UTC
1. Kronos and Paladin were prime pvp ships with their 90% webs

2. If CCP even remotely thought of these for Large POS's in high sec then they failed. Need a DPS multiplier

3. If the ship can't move in siege, they have 1 web(no 90% webs anymore), every ship will be able to burn away.

4. These ships were buffed for 2 reasons:
A) Obvious bait
B) Better missioning ships that need cheaper mods to survive

I don't see how any of these changes help a pvper

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Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#1359 - 2013-09-01 17:27:15 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Here is a counter-proposal:

"The marauder class battleship is an evolution of tried and tested hulls, designed for extended sorties behind enemy lines. Marauders focus on dealing damage and evading capture by the enemies of the empire. As such, marauders have built in technology that gives them:

5% bonus to base speed per level
18% per level reduction in effectiveness of inbound webifiers
Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers.

(note, they still may not enter warp if disrupted or scrambled)

Emissions from these bulky and unstable high-tech propulsion units has a debilitating effect on sensor arrays and thus the sensor strengths of these ships is known to be weak, leaving them susceptible to battlefield interference. (sensor strength unchanged)"

Web bonuses replaced with 5%/level cap recharge bonus.

Now the marauder can carry on PVEing nicely, has a chance to slip through gate camps/get back to gate, can apply a little battlefield dps until neutralised with ECM and can slip away - justifying the price tag.

It can also get between mission gates more quickly, so isk/hr goes up a little. The extra cap allows use of MWD for better positioning with short range weapons.

Now what do I buy? A vindicator/machariel that does PVE very quickly but which if caught, must fight and die? Or a marauder which is not overly suited to PVP, but can generally slip away if things are not going well?



"I heartily endorse the above-mentioned product and/or service!"

Actually, it goes a long way towards:

A) Justifying the high price tags these ships have.

B) Would encourage a few of the bolder pilots to try a Lvl 5 agent (admittedly not for long, as the risk/reward simply isn't there)

C) Gives the Marauder a definite, albeit narrowly-focused, advantage over the Pirate Battleships

D) Gives a small ISK/hour bump to Marauder pilots without introducing weapon bonus changes

E) Provides for a better ability to salvage (more MWD = more effective tractor beam range)
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#1360 - 2013-09-01 17:35:48 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Here is a counter-proposal:

"The marauder class battleship is an evolution of tried and tested hulls, designed for extended sorties behind enemy lines. Marauders focus on dealing damage and evading capture by the enemies of the empire. As such, marauders have built in technology that gives them:

5% bonus to base speed per level
18% per level reduction in effectiveness of inbound webifiers
Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers.

(note, they still may not enter warp if disrupted or scrambled)

Emissions from these bulky and unstable high-tech propulsion units has a debilitating effect on sensor arrays and thus the sensor strengths of these ships is known to be weak, leaving them susceptible to battlefield interference. (sensor strength unchanged)"

Web bonuses replaced with 5%/level cap recharge bonus.

Now the marauder can carry on PVEing nicely, has a chance to slip through gate camps/get back to gate, can apply a little battlefield dps until neutralised with ECM and can slip away - justifying the price tag.

It can also get between mission gates more quickly, so isk/hr goes up a little. The extra cap allows use of MWD for better positioning with short range weapons.

Now what do I buy? A vindicator/machariel that does PVE very quickly but which if caught, must fight and die? Or a marauder which is not overly suited to PVP, but can generally slip away if things are not going well?



How the hell does a PVPer catch this thing if it can MJD out of trouble every single time?

"Microwarp drives immune from the effects of warp scramblers."

That is MASSIVE!

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