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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Wu Phat
InsufficientFunds LLC.
#1181 - 2013-08-31 22:10:16 UTC
Rework Lvl 5 Missions, as in remove all "Frigate Class Rats" and you sir have buffed low sec. Another way to make Isk out side of Sovereignty Null & Incursions and cause people to get territorial over gets a +1 from me. If CCP goes this way.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1182 - 2013-08-31 22:12:57 UTC
Quote:
]Did you two actually read what he wrote?

If most of the changes people have vomited up as alternatives came to be you'd be dead in the above situation in anything less than another Marauder fleet. His point is that the "better idea's" being thrown around would make Marauders the defacto fleet doctrine of any large alliance.

And he'd be correct in that.


Marauders are way too expensive and skill-intensive (the latter being more important than the former) to use as a "de-facto fleet doctrine" even if they are heavily boosted. Battleship V, AWU V, EGU V, and then the Marauders skill itself which is Rank 10. You need to find hundreds of pilots that have all that and that also all have the T2 guns of your choice trained, since mixing racial types definitely doesn't work as a fleet doctrine.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1183 - 2013-08-31 22:19:44 UTC
For the life of me I can't understand many of the complaints in here...

Yes, the 90% Web is going away. I'm willing to bet that during the Pirate re-balance it will go away there too, and for good reason: It's too damned powerful. In it's place you get incredible projection, incredible local tank, highly boosted buffer tank and EWAR immunity.

This is a more than a fair trade, folks. It's an incredible improvement.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#1184 - 2013-08-31 22:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lephia DeGrande
Battle Cube wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I am a sadpuppy that 80% of this Thread is just ignorant or "to-stupid-to-read", please no changes CCP we dont want something New we just want just better and more expensive **** like in WoW, bigger is better, T3>T1 at any means give us MOAR!!!!!



its not that we want it to be just better, its that this ship is both expensive and skill intensive, meaning that ships that arent as expensive and skill intensive should not be just plain better than it.


Pirate Ships cost the same and does have nearly the same skill time (if IV-V) and they are clearly good enough to compete, while T1 arent better in any means. Sry cant see your point.

Edit: Ok, Tier 3 is pretty close...

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1185 - 2013-08-31 22:24:41 UTC
Wu Phat wrote:
Rework Lvl 5 Missions, as in remove all "Frigate Class Rats" and you sir have buffed low sec. Another way to make Isk out side of Sovereignty Null & Incursions and cause people to get territorial over gets a +1 from me. If CCP goes this way.


The Vargur doesn't even need drones to shoot frigates anymore. With the +20% tracking ammo loaded and 3 tracking mods, 800mm ACs have ~0.17 tracking, which is better than the tracking of medium neutrons.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1186 - 2013-08-31 22:32:18 UTC
Xequecal wrote:


Marauders are way too expensive and skill-intensive (the latter being more important than the former) to use as a "de-facto fleet doctrine" even if they are heavily boosted. Battleship V, AWU V, EGU V, and then the Marauders skill itself which is Rank 10. You need to find hundreds of pilots that have all that and that also all have the T2 guns of your choice trained, since mixing racial types definitely doesn't work as a fleet doctrine.


This is certainly true.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
gold fever
#1187 - 2013-08-31 22:32:49 UTC
I dont know if it has been discussed in this thread, but if the Marauders are intended to be long range ships, should thier tractor range be increased so that they can reach wrecks left at that range?
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1188 - 2013-08-31 22:41:24 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Wu Phat wrote:
Rework Lvl 5 Missions, as in remove all "Frigate Class Rats" and you sir have buffed low sec. Another way to make Isk out side of Sovereignty Null & Incursions and cause people to get territorial over gets a +1 from me. If CCP goes this way.


The Vargur doesn't even need drones to shoot frigates anymore. With the +20% tracking ammo loaded and 3 tracking mods, 800mm ACs have ~0.17 tracking, which is better than the tracking of medium neutrons.


Yeah, this is totally how the tracking formula works, cause there's no such thing as weapon signature size or target sig radius...
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1189 - 2013-08-31 22:50:27 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Wu Phat wrote:
Rework Lvl 5 Missions, as in remove all "Frigate Class Rats" and you sir have buffed low sec. Another way to make Isk out side of Sovereignty Null & Incursions and cause people to get territorial over gets a +1 from me. If CCP goes this way.


The Vargur doesn't even need drones to shoot frigates anymore. With the +20% tracking ammo loaded and 3 tracking mods, 800mm ACs have ~0.17 tracking, which is better than the tracking of medium neutrons.


Yeah, this is totally how the tracking formula works, cause there's no such thing as weapon signature size or target sig radius...


chance to hit and tracking arent same thing
Stay Thirsty
The Chosen Children
#1190 - 2013-08-31 22:55:31 UTC
I will state this again, although it will be the 25th time it has been stated (hoping it catches the eye of CCP).

Make the tractor range bonus something useful with the new MJD range. IE... 500% tractor range bonus, or better yet make it a totally different bonus unrelated to tractors. 500% would be 100km, which is slightly further than a max trained Noctis. As it stands right now, the Marauders' tractors are not that effective in missions where wrecks are spread. It is better to BM and return with a Noctis. I can only imagine if you jump 100km away you are not going to slow-boat back to the 40km range to use the tractor. I foresee the combination of a MJD and a 100% bonus will lead to a massive drop in the utilization of marauder with tractors all-together.

Personally I would rather see a total different bonus. If you are switching these to being a dual PVE/PVP boat, the tractor bonus is fairly useless in either situation. It does nothing for a PVP doctrine as I can't really see using a billion ISK ship as your looter / salvager. I don't think many mission runners are going to use the Marauder as a kill / loot / salvage boat again since the Noctis was invented. Especially now with a reduced drone bay that makes having a flight of salvage drones not as easy. In PVE, it still remains more efficient to come back in a Noctis, or simply contract your wrecks to someone like Pro-Synergy.

If you are totally set on keeping the bonus to tractor, at least with a 100km range, the tractor may get some use in PVE for wreck-balling.
Cade Windstalker
#1191 - 2013-08-31 23:43:27 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Wu Phat wrote:
Rework Lvl 5 Missions, as in remove all "Frigate Class Rats" and you sir have buffed low sec. Another way to make Isk out side of Sovereignty Null & Incursions and cause people to get territorial over gets a +1 from me. If CCP goes this way.


The Vargur doesn't even need drones to shoot frigates anymore. With the +20% tracking ammo loaded and 3 tracking mods, 800mm ACs have ~0.17 tracking, which is better than the tracking of medium neutrons.


Yeah, this is totally how the tracking formula works, cause there's no such thing as weapon signature size or target sig radius...


chance to hit and tracking arent same thing


Yeah, actually they kind of are. Tracking is entirely a component of the damage application formula. Your tracking factors into you chance to hit but comparing raw tracking numbers between weapons classes doesn't work by itself.
NiteNinja
Doomheim
#1192 - 2013-08-31 23:53:14 UTC
And to add onto my previous post with the Golem and the Torpedoes vs Cruises deliemma... if you're trying to gear the Golem up for Cruise missiles (long range combat), then do something with defender missiles.

1 defender missile = 1/4 of the Golem's DPS, so the Golem will become the weaker of the 4 Marauders if you plan on using it for PVP like the original topic is about. Can't null 1/4 of the ammo on the other 3 ships that easily.

And most NPC's use defenders. More nerfage so the Golem won't be practical for PVE either... >.>

Might as well sell off my ship and go back to a Navy Raven.
Hedor
Aquitaine Holdings
#1193 - 2013-08-31 23:57:40 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though).

Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server Shocked

Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.



Only problem I have with this explanation is this, my golem has nothing in low slots but damage mods, so its not like the bastion module will let me remove anything to add more dps, with a lower drone bay and no more slots in low I cant even do some good sentry damage with drone damage amp's......... This is pure tank and not much else for the bastion module, for its intended effect, it really does need some sort of bonus to damage, or I need another low slot on my golem :D.
Cade Windstalker
#1194 - 2013-09-01 00:04:57 UTC
NiteNinja wrote:
And to add onto my previous post with the Golem and the Torpedoes vs Cruises deliemma... if you're trying to gear the Golem up for Cruise missiles (long range combat), then do something with defender missiles.

1 defender missile = 1/4 of the Golem's DPS, so the Golem will become the weaker of the 4 Marauders if you plan on using it for PVP like the original topic is about. Can't null 1/4 of the ammo on the other 3 ships that easily.

And most NPC's use defenders. More nerfage so the Golem won't be practical for PVE either... >.>

Might as well sell off my ship and go back to a Navy Raven.


Missile HP bonus on Bastion maybe? Or on the Golem itself so it's more viable as a whole. Would help make up for the lack of a damage bonus on the hull too, since the other three get one along with the stock Raven.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1195 - 2013-09-01 00:06:53 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:


Yeah, this is totally how the tracking formula works, cause there's no such thing as weapon signature size or target sig radius...


With the way the chance to hit formula works the less your struggling to track the less significant the signature difference between the target ship and weapon your using is - to the point that on a stationary target its academic if theres a difference.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1196 - 2013-09-01 00:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Wu Phat wrote:
Rework Lvl 5 Missions, as in remove all "Frigate Class Rats" and you sir have buffed low sec. Another way to make Isk out side of Sovereignty Null & Incursions and cause people to get territorial over gets a +1 from me. If CCP goes this way.


The Vargur doesn't even need drones to shoot frigates anymore. With the +20% tracking ammo loaded and 3 tracking mods, 800mm ACs have ~0.17 tracking, which is better than the tracking of medium neutrons.


Yeah, this is totally how the tracking formula works, cause there's no such thing as weapon signature size or target sig radius...


chance to hit and tracking arent same thing


Yeah, actually they kind of are. Tracking is entirely a component of the damage application formula. Your tracking factors into you chance to hit but comparing raw tracking numbers between weapons classes doesn't work by itself.


oh look, chance to hit is different than tracking. Chance to hit includes tracking. Wow, its as if what i just said was entirely accurate.

But yes you are correct chance to hit would be different, tracking is Not the only factor, and comparing large guns to medium guns the sig matters a lot more
Cade Windstalker
#1197 - 2013-09-01 00:07:15 UTC
Hedor wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though).

Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server Shocked

Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.



Only problem I have with this explanation is this, my golem has nothing in low slots but damage mods, so its not like the bastion module will let me remove anything to add more dps, with a lower drone bay and no more slots in low I cant even do some good sentry damage with drone damage amp's......... This is pure tank and not much else for the bastion module, for its intended effect, it really does need some sort of bonus to damage, or I need another low slot on my golem :D.


Well, if missile-boats get mid-slot damage application mods then this changes. Also you could potentially down-grade your tank to something with less bling or strip tanking modules off in favor of webs and/or target painters. Both of these help the Golem through slots that would otherwise be used for tank.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1198 - 2013-09-01 00:09:44 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:

oh look, chance to hit is different than tracking. Chance to hit includes tracking. Wow, its as if what i just said was entirely accurate.


The point hes trying to make as per my earlier post the other components of the chance to hit formula become less relevant as your ability to track a target increases.
Cade Windstalker
#1199 - 2013-09-01 00:10:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Battle Cube wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:

chance to hit and tracking arent same thing


Yeah, actually they kind of are. Tracking is entirely a component of the damage application formula. Your tracking factors into you chance to hit but comparing raw tracking numbers between weapons classes doesn't work by itself.


oh look, chance to hit is different than tracking. Chance to hit includes tracking. Wow, its as if what i just said was entirely accurate.


I feel like you are entirely missing the point of the original comment. His implication was that 800 Autocannons would apply damage as well as medium blasters. This is blatantly false.

Also that is the damage-application formula and the only place tracking is taken into account so, yes, that is "tracking".

Rroff wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:

oh look, chance to hit is different than tracking. Chance to hit includes tracking. Wow, its as if what i just said was entirely accurate.


The point hes trying to make as per my earlier post the other components of the chance to hit formula become less relevant as your ability to track a target increases.


Not really, if anything it becomes more relevant because it becomes harder to get additional boosts to tracking and you start losing a larger relative percentage of damage to signature resolution. Due to stacking penalties at a certain point you're likely to be better off adding a Target Painter than another tracking computer depending on the signature size of the target.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1200 - 2013-09-01 00:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Cade Windstalker wrote:

I feel like you are entirely missing the point of the original comment. His implication was that 800 Autocannons would apply damage as well as medium blasters. This is blatantly false.


On a tricked out vargur say versus a deimos - given both having same on paper dps and ignoring resists against say a crucifier the only thing thats different is the range at which the crucifier can get under their guns - on optimal the damage application is as close as makes no difference identical (yes it really is) despite the differences in gun signature compared to the target.


Cade Windstalker wrote:

Not really, if anything it becomes more relevant because it becomes harder to get additional boosts to tracking and you start losing a larger relative percentage of damage to signature resolution. Due to stacking penalties at a certain point you're likely to be better off adding a Target Painter than another tracking computer depending on the signature size of the target.


Thats true to a certain extent but for most intents and purposes if your not having to worry about tracking then sig differences make very little odds in damage application - the formula does not work the way people think it does.