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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Cade Windstalker
#1061 - 2013-08-31 10:32:29 UTC
Someone has pointed out a rather interesting and possibly disturbing set of conditions where a Vargur with the use of cargo-expanders and ASBs could potentially fit a cap-independent tank greater than any single sub-capital's DPS and maintain that tank for about half an hour...

If this is fine then, well, that's fine.

If it's not then two possible solutions present themselves, either add an exception so that ASBs aren't affected by the local repair bonus of Bastion or make it so that you can only fit one ASB per ship.

The former adds another kind of odd exception to the game which is both annoying and confusing. The latter breaks some already present gameplay and fits but may end up more balanced overall, not sure.
Danica Fox
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1062 - 2013-08-31 10:35:40 UTC
and look @ the skill time issue to bs

bs is 1 x8 skill

for marauders u need this to 5

marauders itself is x10
energy grid upgrades is another 5 u need @x2
and adv weapon upgr @ 5 is a x6 skill
add another x5 skill

and u have more skill time than for a dread carrier Pirater BS or anything else subcap

for what 1/2 price and nothing else gets near half of it (dps tank projection jump mobility whatever)

actually a carrier is same price 1,5 to1,8x the damge alot more ehp alot more tank alot more logistic options

(all for null sec view)

pirate bs exceed in every point price (vindi is same i think rattler cnr and so on are like 50-66% price) whisch all do better
@ lvl 4s incursions nullsec annos pvp(small gang fleet fights)

and hell yes someone posted a sentry domi that would beat a marauder while bastioned in projection and movement for the price of under 350 mill fittet!

i have done pvp in solo (not good) small scale (1x weekish) fleet scale 3-4 times a week hell i was even in the biggest fights

i have done pve in highsec lowsec npc null in drone sov space in angel sov space in blood space and guristas space over my ~8 years in eve and i cant think of anything that marauder shine in that status other than maybe small gang..for every activity in eve there are cheaper better and more speciallized variants....

but on the other hand it would ruin smallscale because intelchannels would fill with omg a marauder cyno afterwards rest is business as usual-
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1063 - 2013-08-31 10:39:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
The Djego wrote:


Well not entirely true.

1. The extra range is nice on the Paladin, the falloff bonus is kind of pointless on the Kronos(because it is mostly a rail platform) and overall I don't think the bonus is worth the loss in web strength, I would rather like to see that the active tank bonus would removed in favour of a damage application bonus(since it is fairly pointless for L4 and useless for PVE with RR).
2. The lost Sentry option is quite massive nerf for the Kronos, for stuff like Incs you use your full drone bay for sentry's, since you can utilize focus webbing and painting.
3. While it is not really required in Amarr space and on the paladin(because most stuff stays at range) it is fairly important for a sentry/rail Kronos to keep the dps up at closer range and a extreme important bonus for the hulls in Incrusions.
4. You can tank L4 just fine with them now, while fitting 4 damage mods and a T2 damage rig. If you didn't over tank the hulls before, it means nothing.
5. It only really hurts vs Guristas, then again ECM is the worst EW ever.
6. The dps they have with her drones is fine atm, the drone nerf will cost them up to 120dps and will hit the Kronos the hardest(surprisingly the worst marauder dps wise, since it is crippled by missing 2 sentry drones).

Overall if you want to do L4 reasonable quick the changes are bad, you lose dps, you lose the 90% web, you lose a lot of speed with the mwd(because you want to fit a mwd, not a mjd) and take even longer to switch systems, all for a massive active tank, that nobody should need and what prevents you from moving to the next gate while shooting stuff. For PVE with RR like Incursions or WH the changes are even worse, since the active tank stuff does nothing for you and you lose quite a bit dps, speed and one of the best ship bonuses for it.

Even for PVP I would rather prefer a bit more speed, another damage application bonus and a slight buff in the RR ability, to have a good alternative compared to the pirate BS, instead a slow active tanking brick, that screams bait or simple will be shoot last in a gang fight.


Well, dont know much about Kronos so you are probably right, but at few points you are wrong:
1) Guristas are not as bad with ECM, as sansha are with TD. Try flying a sansha mission in any turret ship - u will smash your head into keyboard (despite having a uber-pimped Paladin i fly Tengu for many sansha missions).
2) Not all missions can be tanked even in Marauders - the assault most notably or the blokade if u mess up spawns (which is often in this mission) - while my tengu can tank it quite easily. Also Dread pirate Scarlet mission is hard in Marauders because of the random dmg types in pockets.
3) Since i don't fly sentry drones I don't have an opinion on them, but a flight of medium drones is useless (they spend most of the time flying from target to target and being shot down in the process).
4) Web is a delicate issue, for Paladin it doesn't help much in PvE, i guess for Kronos it's different. It was a great bonus for PvP but since the ship can no longer move and is fairly useless in PvP i also don't see a point in keeping that bonus.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1064 - 2013-08-31 10:41:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Here, because I like you guys and EVE Online and because I've done a lot of "marauding" in my day (albeit not in Marauders because they have always been terrible ships for PvP), I'll make a list of desirable attributes for ships that are "meant to operate behind enemy lines for extended periods of time." Maybe you can just pick some of these and roll them into a ship that will actually be useful for something!

- The reduced ammo usage + fitting flexibility that comes from Marauders' existing 4-guns / 7-highs layout

- Mobility-- this goes for speed and agility. If you want to do hit-and-run sort of work, you don't want to be flying a ship that handles like an oil tanker. NOTE: total immobility is even worse than handling like an oil tanker!

- Large cargo holds: when going on long deployments in hostile space, it's nice to have room for plenty of ammo, paste, anchorable bubbles, etc

- Services that can be provided to spacebros: fitting services to swap out burned-out modules, move drones into bays, etc can be invaluable when operating far from the nearest usable station

- Stealth / ability to move about unhindered: whether moving around a solar system discreetly in order to observe hostile movements, traveling through stargates with reduced risk of death, or bypassing gatecamps using a jump drive, enhanced stealthiness is always a perk when operating in someone else's playground

- General flexibility: when you're in the middle of a hostile region it's difficult to switch ships-- you have to work with what you've got on hand. As a result, you want a ship that's useful in a variety of combat scenarios. You don't really need a ship that epitomizes any one thing-- DPS, tracking, tackle range, mobility, etc-- but rather a ship that blends attributes so as to be useful in a variety of situations: it should have decent scan-resolution, good mobility, a flexible engagement envelope that allows it to fight without completely committing itself to a brawl, and it should be able to apply damage to a variety of targets even if it's raw DPS output isn't the greatest. Adaptability is king when you're operating 30 jumps from the nearest dockable station and need a ship that can be useful whenever you choose to log in and whoever you end up flying with. Your proposed Marauders are basically the exact opposite of what I just described.

Here are some suggestions for things you could add specializations for:

- Trade durability for increased mobility over their T1 counterparts

- Role bonuses to the effectiveness of propulsion mods as a mobility augmentation

- Fit 4 guns with damage and tracking bonuses such that they do less DPS than T1 battleships, but with significantly improved tracking (making their turrets perform somewhere between normal BS guns and medium turrets in terms of applied DPS to cruiser and battlecruiser-sized targets, all while reducing rates of ammunition consumption)

- Enhanced drone bay sizes, allowing Marauders to keep spare flights of drones for long deployments

- Superior scan resolution, allowing them lock targets in useful amounts of time without having to fit racks of sensor boosters. Additionally, allows the ships to maintain decent scan res while fitting high-quality cloaks, which are pretty much a prerequisite on slow (IE slower than a frigate) ships that are intended to spend most of their time in hostile space.

- Have large cargoholds plus an additional ammunition bay capable of carrying large amounts of ammo-- net result being that Marauders can set off with enough ammo for a few weeks' worth of sustained operations while still retaining enough free cargo space for lugging along a significant stash of consumables and looting hostile wrecks.

- Secondary bonuses to combat-related utility functions, such as neutralizer range, amount, web range, etc

- Add some kind of out-of-combat-focused fitting services to allow Marauders to function as support ships for operations in hostile space (limit service use to one client ship at a time, perhaps?) (NOTE: IMHO this kind of role should be filled by some new class of ship rather than Marauders, but you could rationalize such a role for this ship I suppose)

- ??

I guess my point is, there are a lot of things you could do with these ships that would make them live up to their descriptions and be useful for PvP, but um, the ideas in the OP are terrible.
Kaeden Dourhand
Raven's Sway
#1065 - 2013-08-31 10:44:00 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Why some hisec mission runners don't understand that damage + tracking speed bonus for that module would be really bad?

You want more damage? Ok, tracking speed should drop dramatically.


I can live with that. works with the MJD bonus too. MJD out, and snipe the bastards. As it stands these changes do **** all for people that run lv4 missions, which are most marauder users, to be fair.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#1066 - 2013-08-31 10:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Swiftstrike1
Regarding the Bastion module...
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though).

Sounds like a terrible idea. Couldn't you just make it so that it can't be done within 2.5km of stations or stargates? You should never have to turn safety off in hisec if you are a law abiding pilot.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Iree
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1067 - 2013-08-31 10:46:30 UTC
Guys please do NOT think this is a solo boat, consider the ships in at least pairs, who hopefully have the forsight to MJD apart from each other while still being in range of each other. This essentially makes them immune to tackle frigs as you can just blap them off the other ship while they do the same for you, you dont need to have a 90% web if you have someone covering you from a distance where transversal is not an issue. Being EW immune makes this impossible to stop or mitigate. Just stay in Bastion mode and tank while killing all tackle.

Secondly this is definitely small gang vs. small gang stuff, obviously this wont work against dreads or massive alpha blobs. But against most other groups, unless they have very heavy tackle, there is really nothing they can do to pin you down very well. Even with heavy tackle, thats going to be slow enough to just MJD out of its range.

Honestly these changes seem OP if anything.
Laura Belle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1068 - 2013-08-31 10:48:47 UTC
SkupojHren wrote:
what?i dont even know where to start

Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%

why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.

also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5


you get a bonus for target painter.
for torps (especially) and cruise missiles its pretty much an immediate boost in dps.
you want to change it to passive explosion radius bonus?
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#1069 - 2013-08-31 10:53:42 UTC
I think that the biggest probing stone of ship's balancing is not "What I could do with this ship" but "What if 1000 Goons fielded that ships against me" question. This question boils to, do you still want them to be as kickass as you say?
Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights
#1070 - 2013-08-31 10:57:57 UTC
Kikusama wrote:
Looks good in general with 2 addendums:
- 400-500% increase in DPS whilst in bastion mode will put these right between normal battleships and dreadnoughts;
- they all need 90% webs.

Basically with a fleet of these you'd get what you'd get with tracking dreads and vindis, only a lot more mobile.

PvE wise this would make these preferable to pirate battleships, without really trampling all over their territory (if you want to blitz stuff you can still use the Mach for example, if you want to obliterate everything bastion up a Vargur).


That much of a increase is too much, 50-100% would be more then enough.
Laura Belle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1071 - 2013-08-31 10:59:05 UTC
gotta say, i'm glad i didn't train for a marauder.

for me much of the charm of the marauder was in the combo of web+resists+rep bonus.
this "don't get any closer!" combo is now changed for "stay 30 km from me and be fine"

the web is especially needed IMO as for the bastion makes you completely immobile.
I'd replace the tracking for this at least on 1 of the ships

also i dont like the line up for range damage tracking for all ships.. no differences rather then the gun type?
*how about web/ tracking / extra damage to split between the 3? (just an idea)
Cade Windstalker
#1072 - 2013-08-31 11:05:19 UTC
Laura Belle wrote:
gotta say, i'm glad i didn't train for a marauder.

for me much of the charm of the marauder was in the combo of web+resists+rep bonus.
this "don't get any closer!" combo is now changed for "stay 30 km from me and be fine"

the web is especially needed IMO as for the bastion makes you completely immobile.
I'd replace the tracking for this at least on 1 of the ships

also i dont like the line up for range damage tracking for all ships.. no differences rather then the gun type?
*how about web/ tracking / extra damage to split between the 3? (just an idea)


Extra-damage would be hilariously broken, especially on blaster-boats and would cause Marauders to step all over what seems to be CCP's intended role for Pirate Battleships. Also you can fit enough tracking computers on even the Kronos with these changes that blasters are a credible threat out to some pretty absurd ranges with the Bastion activated.

The web-bonus is a relic of the pre-Nano-Nerf days and probably long over-due to go away. I'll miss it a little but it's kind of hilariously over-powered as bonuses go and causes all sorts of problems in ship balancing between size classes. At a guess it's not long for this world on the Vindicator either.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1073 - 2013-08-31 11:10:11 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
The web-bonus is a relic of the pre-Nano-Nerf days and probably long over-due to go away. I'll miss it a little but it's kind of hilariously over-powered as bonuses go and causes all sorts of problems in ship balancing between size classes. At a guess it's not long for this world on the Vindicator either.


You're ********-- pre-nano nerf, ALL T2 webs were 90% webs... web strength bonii have only become useful *since* the nano nerf. Furthermore they don't cause balancing problems between ship sizes-- they work as intended to make webbing-specialized ships a lethal threat to things that speed-tank, which is pretty much their whole gimmick.
sudobaal theblooded
Perkone
Caldari State
#1074 - 2013-08-31 11:11:21 UTC
this looks promising.. looking forward to trying it out, Big smile


but, the tractor beam bonus needs to be buff to some degree atleast with the noctis at lvl 5 plus t2 tractor beams you get some 96 km range.. on the marauders you get close to 48, and with the extra range added to the missiles its gonna be even further out the wrecks are for Golem pilots. and also all othere maraduer pilots.

But i can see a good use for them HS pos bash with a good fleet of these.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1075 - 2013-08-31 11:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
sudobaal theblooded wrote:

But i can see a good use for them HS pos bash with a good fleet of these.


What are you talking about? These things will be torn to bits by any decently-fit POS: they can't be remote repped while in siege and can't tank enough DPS locally to rep against a POS even with their tanking bonuses... even dreads can't tank intact deathstar POSes! Oh, and they don't do any more DPS than a normal battleship either. Other than these shortcomings, yeah, they're gonna make great POS-bashers...
Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights
#1076 - 2013-08-31 11:15:44 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Laura Belle wrote:
gotta say, i'm glad i didn't train for a marauder.

for me much of the charm of the marauder was in the combo of web+resists+rep bonus.
this "don't get any closer!" combo is now changed for "stay 30 km from me and be fine"

the web is especially needed IMO as for the bastion makes you completely immobile.
I'd replace the tracking for this at least on 1 of the ships

also i dont like the line up for range damage tracking for all ships.. no differences rather then the gun type?
*how about web/ tracking / extra damage to split between the 3? (just an idea)


Extra-damage would be hilariously broken, especially on blaster-boats and would cause Marauders to step all over what seems to be CCP's intended role for Pirate Battleships. Also you can fit enough tracking computers on even the Kronos with these changes that blasters are a credible threat out to some pretty absurd ranges with the Bastion activated.

The web-bonus is a relic of the pre-Nano-Nerf days and probably long over-due to go away. I'll miss it a little but it's kind of hilariously over-powered as bonuses go and causes all sorts of problems in ship balancing between size classes. At a guess it's not long for this world on the Vindicator either.


I dont think so, as you lose all your mobility for the extra dps. Also keep in mind that you are now restricted to only light drones instead of the bigger bandwith that these ships used to have. Some dps compensation would be nice.
Shoppi Fox
money talks dirty
#1077 - 2013-08-31 11:25:28 UTC
These changes took weeeks so with all the feedback they would take more weeeks to reiterate completely so i dont think any pointwill change drastically . They have a lot of work 4 winter addon to do so letz hope they wont brake any other ship class this much

I already regret skilling 4 marauders and blops t3s and the other long term **** because when im done skilling it its a matter of less time spend skilling these change to someting else

In around 6 month my super alt is ready letz see if those are something else till then and. i neeed 12345678 new skills and new things to do with it....

This game is a long term thing due to its "LVL UP" thingi but changes stab u in the back if ur unlucky

I'm not telling to quit but i will farm for a new char with a bad name i cant change from the char bazar just to stay in the game which is not the way many would think of the game to be played i think

Until every pve ship is a pvp ship with a possible use in pve and the sandbox is broken to a degree its no longger a sb
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1078 - 2013-08-31 11:28:56 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
"What I could do with this ship" but "What if 1000 Goons fielded that ships against me" question. This question boils to, do you still want them to be as kickass as you say?


Atm: *Phew, could've been actual battleships*
Danica Fox
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1079 - 2013-08-31 11:30:55 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
"What I could do with this ship" but "What if 1000 Goons fielded that ships against me" question. This question boils to, do you still want them to be as kickass as you say?


Atm: *Phew, could've been actual battleships*


this makes me loaugh hard! and its the truth too ^^
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1080 - 2013-08-31 11:31:27 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Someone has pointed out a rather interesting and possibly disturbing set of conditions where a Vargur with the use of cargo-expanders and ASBs could potentially fit a cap-independent tank greater than any single sub-capital's DPS and maintain that tank for about half an hour...


A Vargur can already do that. 2 XL-ASB, 2 Invulns and two T2 resist rigs already gives you over 2000dps tank if you have a damage control. Chuck in a pair of boost amps and that's approaching 4k dps. It's going to be an utter monster with this planned Bastion module, it'll be out tanking Siege/Triage Dread/Carriers but with significantly less buffer.
Golem is even more insane due to extra mids.

ASBs really, really need to be locked to only being allowed a single one fitted. Either that or make the Anciliary Armour reps not be locked down to a single one. The Paladin and Kronos can't even get close to the tank the Vargur and Golem can pull off.