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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#1041 - 2013-08-31 07:38:14 UTC
Gustav Mannfred wrote:
why making the marauders slower? even a nidhoggur is faster then a paladin or golem

they should keep theyr actual mobility, could be even better...


Silly question they are making them slower so they can do drag race with orca. Roll

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Gummi Worm
Tarot Club
#1042 - 2013-08-31 07:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Gummi Worm
bastion module:

I think bonus of falloff and optimal need + 30% instead of 25% because, kronos/vargur have some problem with range/dps, and golem can use cruise within 200km without losing dps.

Use heavy water or something like this, remember people use marauder for salvaging and need a lot m^3.

Instead 70% MJD time reduction , give -50% cap reduction / + 25% speed for afterburner, nobody wanna use MJD in mission
May Wanderdriven
The Driven
#1043 - 2013-08-31 07:52:52 UTC
I really like that change besides the 'transformer' like thing. It gives me a 'shallow' taste that is there to seek 'broader audience' (if you know what I mean). If you want my opinion, get rid of it, make a huge ass gun come out of the middle or something and we're cool. cheers for the idea at any rate.
Matari Akiga
Doomheim
#1044 - 2013-08-31 08:14:34 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
Why on the love of God does EVERYONE want them to be Solo PvP or Fleet Fight specialized!?

Its a PvE / Small(medium) Gang Supporter! God damn it!

Edit: And i am also approving where the balancing lead us as whole, CCP dont let you misslead from some stubborn old/young veterans! Thanks.


I can only reply to this in the context of what I know because I fly it, which is the Kronos.

We are not looking for it to be a solo wtfbbqpwnmobile every ship should have a role that it fits well and in this case losing the web bonus is a massive nerf to the Kronos that actually removes most of its possible roles, talking PVE with the reduced drone bay and the removal of the web bonus you are almost forced to MJD away from the enemy frigate spawns to snipe the frigates before they can get under your guns, rinse and repeat until the frigates are gone then MJD back towards the larger spawns to shoot them.

For incursions no remote reps while in bastion mode and good luck fitting enough local tank to survive 60 seconds without external reps, not that it will be an issue because the thing that the Kronos did well slowing the enemy and applying its DPS well is now gone with the removal of the web bonus, it was its dual ability that made it a good ship to have in an incursion fleet.

For PVP in a small gang it wont be used as a brawler as there are far faster more agile ships that out perform it massively the best example being the Vindi which has the web bonus so is also very useful against small ships, but a blaster Talos could achieve the same or better results whilst representing a much smaller financial risk, greater speed, greater agility and smaller signature.

For sniper fits anything above 150 KM in range is generally not a good idea because of the probe mechanics and there are a great many fits that can apply good DPS out to 150 KM without making the ship immobile and presenting a very nice opportunity to get a nice 1 bil + kill mail.

I can see what CCP were aiming for with these changes but with the loss of the web bonus the Kronos loses what made it a good (not great but good) ship and less than half the ammo consumption of a Vindi is not enough to warrant using it anymore IMHO.

TL:DR Kronos needs the webs back to be good.

CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.

Improvise, adapt and overcome!
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1045 - 2013-08-31 08:30:42 UTC
im thinking these ships need to be fitted with capital guns n take them down to 3 turret/missiles, make it so in bastion mode they are great up outside they are poor (weapon wise)
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1046 - 2013-08-31 08:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Tauranon wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'

no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.



I already use a blaster kronos, I can't see that it will always be slower, because that's a setup that is going to be highly improved when it can project its 1600dps further...

edit : not quite 1600 anymore stupid drone...

Bloody forums ate my post...

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1047 - 2013-08-31 08:47:51 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'

no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.



I already use a blaster kronos, I can't see that it will always be slower, because that's a setup that is going to be highly improved when it can project its 1600dps further...

edit : not quite 1600 anymore stupid drone...
Having more falloff does not allow you to project 1600 dps further, losing the web bonus means actually it will be worse, because you only hit that at 6.75km or below (Void L), and without the web bonus, your targets transversal just went up by 400%

People (not you) often fall into the mistake of quoting optimal plus falloff and the dps number from the fitting sceeen - I blame EFT... you dont want to be in falloff in a 'true' blaster boat, you want to be at optimal with the target as near to stationnary as possible- You want 90% webs, not a falloff bonus.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Octoven
Stellar Production
#1048 - 2013-08-31 09:03:41 UTC
When I first saw Fozzie's post about them and the new cool theme to go with it, I thought to myself oh great, when CCP says cool theme. it usually means taking a ship that does very well in its current role, putting it in an ass backward role and ******* it up for that role as well. I would just like to say, thanks CCP for proving me right once again.

Essentially you are making a mini dread at a fraction of the cost and this is good how? To be honest, whats the deal with the MJD bonuses, are there seriously not enough people using your new mod that you have to stick it on T2s? The ships would have been a lot more useful retaining other bonuses such as sensor damp, web, tracking disrupt....stuff that really makes pvp nice. MJD may be a valid tactical module; however, they are pointless if you are fit to brawl in CQ with another BS. I would think your whole, "taking it our of one specific use and giving it other uses" would apply here as well. If you truly want that, then take the MJD bonus back off and put the other bonuses on.

The whole idea of the mini-dread seems **** all ridiculous to me. I was really surprised you guys actually went all out to make us think it was going to be a proper re balance. Most were thinking of minor/major changes to bonuses and such like the other ships were, not redesigning the whole bloody ship. I would suggest taking these changes and applying them toward a future NEW T2 BS class :p
Grombutz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1049 - 2013-08-31 09:20:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Grombutz
The initial Idea is quite, amazing, but it is lacking more brain.

What's the point of Marauders with this? You won't use the bastion in PvE (neither missions, nor incursions) as the benefits are almost non-existant (especially for missiles). You won't use it in PvP either, as it screws your survivability (ironic, isn't it?).


Bastion sounds really cool, but for gods sake:

Give it an increase in DMG (12,5% / 25%), and an increase in damage application (Optimal/Falloff + tracking for turrets, Ex-rad for missiles) so that it becomes a worthwhile button to press for the inherent drawbacks (no movement, no remote assistance etc.). And for the love of god, remove that weapon-timer.. thanks.


TLDR: Damage BONUS FFS - marauders are allready a joke compared to pirate BS (although the costs are roughly equal while training time is much higher). Giving them more tank won't solve this issue.

Edit:

MJD is meh - only noobs (without proper tank/gank) and Domi pilots (AFK WITH DA SENTRY!) are using it in PvE. PvE doesn't have much 100+ KM travel, so yeah, let's use it to reach that 50km gate faster - oh, wait.

While I do think MJD's are cool, they are too much of a niche to deserve a bonus on ships used for different purposes 99% of the time. You want to change that ok, but: we don't want to have Marauders pressed into a role so you don't have to care about the true problems with the plattform (which is the comparision with Pirate BS).

We don't want an akward solution for ships that require THAT much time to train. If you make them useless for the purpose they allready have, you are screwing us over. We've expected an improvment to these ships (as they are not competive atm), and not a bandaid fix which doesn't solve the issues we are having.


ALSO:

40KM Tractor range is hilarious (and a very stupid joke) if paired with MJD.
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#1050 - 2013-08-31 09:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: PavlikX
Well... I am not sure that i like all ideas.
Increase fitting possibilities - good
MJD bonus - in general good i think....
Bastion module - i guess bad. It would be great if we can use some of it's bonuses without bastion module. But when this thing active this is not a marauder ship anymore - it is space turret
Decrease mobility - bad.
Decreased dronebay - bad (not main problemm anyway)
1 more med or low slot would be much much better than additional 1 high slot
Sensors must be buffed to the T1 BS levels
There must be 125% damage role bonus to free bonus slot to the something else. For example MWD or AB speed/cap usage/fitting bonus. Because MJD can be used in PvE with AB or MWD only to make fly to the gates and wrecks after 100 km jumps. Who will use it in solo PvP after that?

So, i would be satisfied with this bastion module in case we will have 125% damage role bonus and additional MWD/AB skill bonus. Additional med slot to the my favorite Palladin would be fine too.


Edit: Anyway, we need another T2 BS class. Two ships to each race as continuation of HAC line.
Kikusama
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1051 - 2013-08-31 09:25:39 UTC
Looks good in general with 2 addendums:
- 400-500% increase in DPS whilst in bastion mode will put these right between normal battleships and dreadnoughts;
- they all need 90% webs.

Basically with a fleet of these you'd get what you'd get with tracking dreads and vindis, only a lot more mobile.

PvE wise this would make these preferable to pirate battleships, without really trampling all over their territory (if you want to blitz stuff you can still use the Mach for example, if you want to obliterate everything bastion up a Vargur).

Guns make the news. Science doesn't.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1052 - 2013-08-31 09:29:32 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Just another quick update.


  • We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIE™ SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.

  • We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.


Adjusting OP to reflect this.

EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.


Curious about High Energy Physics, was there logic behind its choice?

If they are just skills required for usage then why not choose tactical weapons reconfiguration level 3/4 even if the bastion module is not gaining a per level bonus to it.

Perhaps even combine it with advanced spaceship command 3/4, this combination of skills would reinforce the skills roadmap to capitals.
Just Lilly
#1053 - 2013-08-31 09:58:56 UTC
+ A 200% increase in DPS and restore their original mobility

+ Add a MWD bonus

Troll suggestion: Give them a covert ops cloaking device Twisted
Powered by Nvidia GTX 690
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1054 - 2013-08-31 10:06:53 UTC
Why for the love of god is anyone asking for fuel usage in siege mode? Really is not necessary.
As to damage bonus in siege, it would be nice to have something, but arguably you'd need to need tracking to counter it like on dreads in siege. 5000dps ships with battleship range and normal bat
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1055 - 2013-08-31 10:08:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Only you guys could try to claim / rationalize immobilized, billion-isk ships as being "specialized for harassment tactics." This idea is beyond idiotic.

Siege mode is unnecessary for PvE since power-creep has already made ratting stupidly easy in just about any mostly-fit PvE ship. It has zero usefulness for PvP applications since nobody is going to pay a billion isk to play a game of "warp in at 100, siege, get scrammed, not-be-able-to-MJD-away."

I'm really confused about this whole thread-- these ships won't be meaningfully better for PvE (they don't do more damage, and other ships can already tank sites just fine) and their gimmick feature will be useless for PvP.

Bottom line: go back to the drawing board and come up with a concept for these ships that lives up to their class name.

e: And while I'm on a roll here, calling it a "bastion module" and making it use different skills from a siege module is pants-on-head ********. Make it require tactical weapons reconfig and give it a name that doesn't make it sound like a medium-quality Diablo item.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1056 - 2013-08-31 10:11:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
About warping and the bastion-module:

Currently, funny people can finish a siege cycle and if aligned/not bubbled/still moving warp out pretty fast. *pretty fast*

If you were to translate this to drifting bastioned marauders (align w/ mwd, bastion up) they can't be scrammed for the meantime and - given that you spam warp - should be able to exit bastion while instawarping with way beyond necessary warping speed of surely several hundred m/sec, which would render them nearly uncatchable without a bubble that way.

If I did not misunderstand, why do I suddenly see an ancient chevy with 4 punks in it, drive-by-shooting-scene.

*Edit instead of doublepost \o/*
I'd personally LOVE to see that tracking bonus coming back. That little fella' looked like the n°01 incentive to run that bastionmodule in the first place - and would drastically draw a line between battleship-tracking and fragfrag-marauder tracking. Mean I can't move, but I'm getting the greatest local tank a subcap has seen so far (The repcycles actually look like 'careful, there is a lot of bleeding through your tank gonna happen') - and having that tracking would add better to the OBLITERATE EVERYTHING approach those things seem to indicate with their immobile presence/sluggish construction. Also would add whole lot of chesthair, to quote zap brannigan.
Danica Fox
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1057 - 2013-08-31 10:21:29 UTC
Shoppi Fox wrote:
Danica Fox wrote:
i dont think all when not any of this goes into round 2 but anywhy i try to give constructive critic

first thing first !!! dont just slam in another x8 skill make it in the marauder skill or max x4

even another useless skill @ 5 is not an option when these ships not offer a SERIOUS bonus for the skilltime

this is just useless time and isk sink

now my two cents


pve point of view

but my suggestion would be bonus (((25% resists 25%local tank boost))) 25% damage bonus 25% tracking 25% optimal 25% falloff (25% exp radius / missile speed) (maybe +5% per level) would be worth it. (sounds overpowerd but isnt! u get like 1150 dps out of most marauders with resonable fitting out to 100km or 800dps out to 200km no tank needed with mjd bonus)

the damagebonus is quite crucial to be used. cause i and a lot of people i talked to wouldnt use this in null because thanks to the overview change 1 min is too long to get out of anoms before tackled. on a damagebonus u could consider using. risk vs reward again

The tractor Bonus should be brought inline with noctis range or mjd 100% per lvl of marauder so 100 for t1 120 for t2
bonus on salvage drones no extra high (drone bay of 50 min)

mjd sounds not toooo bad after thinking and talking about

smartbomb range would be awesome bonus

these would be good changes 4 pve

for pvp

why this PVE orientet ship should be viable in PVP
a super isnt viable in PVE right or a (h)dictor

why taking away a pve ship from the game just to make it slighty useable (maybe) in pvp and not leave it a pve ship

other approach make it a pvp ship and dont think about pve so

no tractor beam bonus
-> damage bonus (>50%) to make it viable to siege risk vs reward thing

dreads wouldnt go to siege if they would get no damage bonus on it

think about it a dread with 100% optimal bonus in siege local tank bonus and ewar immunity#

what would u do ?

cyno in closer and remote rep the **** out of attacker / pos guns

please rethink changes

there are alot of good points in this thread.


options imho

1 maybe second marauder hull 1 pve 1pvp

2 stay pve ship with all commitment

3 change to a pvp ship but then remove all pve bonuses and live with it that it wont be used alot


and some questions afterwards :

ewar immuntiy includes or not : defender neut/nos paint ?

why nerf this moon size sigged ships ehp ?

why it has to be pvp viable and when will my (h)dictor will have a pve niche


some changes read to me like the mackinaw getting a 100% scrambling range for each lvl of ancoring

The last sentence is perfect


And yeah i go conform with the above



this is at the moment no rebalance its a new class and if u make a new class u maybe considering naming it somewhere else and introducing it wiht one of you new x8 skills and leave marauders and rebalance them.

like postet serveral time make this ships the "HIGHSEC-DREADS" and u have the Opportunity on bo to make it a PVP ship or
even i dont want to say it loud create a second new ship class a Highsec (in between steppeing stone) Carrier
Florian Kuehne
Tech3 Company
#1058 - 2013-08-31 10:22:39 UTC
I dont understand why are you changing the marauders like that....

What you do is creating a small dread for pve, overpowered and really mad on the same level.

Just give marauders a little bit more sensor strength so that you are not be permajammed or down damped in missione while need 2min to lock a target. To remove web bonus and reducing the dronebandwidth + dronebay is not good. Just take one away.

Other changes to have more fitting opportunities is really good, specially the cap etc.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1059 - 2013-08-31 10:24:27 UTC
Also, by axing the web strength bonus on the Paladin / Kronos you are doing away with the one aspect of those ships that would have made them MJD-friendly-- the ability to fit closerange setups that could dispose of any short-range, scram-equipped tacklers (thanks to the webs) and then MJD away. A ship with no web bonus is just going to sit there and die while tackled by frigate hulls they can do nothing about.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1060 - 2013-08-31 10:26:38 UTC
Why some hisec mission runners don't understand that damage + tracking speed bonus for that module would be really bad?

You want more damage? Ok, tracking speed should drop dramatically.