These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#921 - 2013-08-30 21:48:15 UTC
Currently, this seems more like a triage module than a siege module; bonus to reps, ewar immunity, and-- range. Marginal, but y'know.

Here's an idea: what about making the Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration skill a percentage strontium consumption reduction, like 10% per level? Then make this a proper mini-Siege module for Marauders, with a Strontium cost of 50 per cycle or something similarly low? If it's then paired with a damage and tracking bonus, it then becomes a nasty way to buff DPS -- but paired with, say, a sig bloom and being locked in place, makes the Marauder a giant bomber magnet. Axe the resist buff, and suddenly you do have a mini siege module, instead of a mini triage-but-it's-not-really-we-swear. It gives the unit a clear battlefield role (local domination) with a clear counter (bomber runs), requiring that you clear bombers from the field before dropping the Marauders.

As it stands, this looks like a sort of hamfisted way to buff local tanking sniper fits when snipers rarely use logi or much tank.

Further, I'm still not sure why the Marauders can't be allowed to out-DPS pirate BS. Marauders require vastly more skill training, cost more, and require actual industrial involvement, whereas pirate BS require-- lucky BPC drops and LPs?

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Large Collidable Object
morons.
#922 - 2013-08-30 21:49:03 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I'm fairly sure the reactive armor hardener and damage controls don't stack with each other.
You may just be confusing this with the way resistance bonuses work to begin with.



Quote:
If you only fit one or the other (one Damage Control or one Reactive Hardener), then they are never stacking penalized. They will always give their full damage resistance effect, along with your most effective module that also gives it's full effect as explained above, followed by any other modules that will be stacking penalized. This is one reason why the Damage Control module is so popular; because it is always 100% effective.

If, however, you fit both, then one of them (whichever is less effective) will count as a second module and be stacking penalized accordingly (so, 86.9% effective). This is in addition to your normal resistance modules, of which one will give its full effect and the rest stacking penalized as explained above.

As an example, consider the following five modules all fitted to your fit and their resulting effectiveness: one Damage Control (100% effective), and one Reactive Armor Hardener (86.9% effective); one Armor EM Hardener (100% effective), one Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane (EM resistance 86.9% effective, other resistances 100% effective), and one Adaptive Nano Plating (EM resistance 57.1% effective, other resistances 86.9% effective)



Source
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Retmas
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#923 - 2013-08-30 21:51:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Retmas
Ranger 1 wrote:

Hey, thanks for that. I didn't realize damage controls and reactive armor hardeners stacked against each other.

You know... I don't really think they are supposed to. Bug perhaps?


no, that was a specific design goal. they specifically wanted RAHs to have a stacking penalty against DCII armor resist bonuses. why, i dunno, but they did, and as a cap pilot (i.e. the class ship they're used most on), i'm satisfied with the balance of the thing.

dont have a source right offhand, but if you check the RAH introduction thread i think it's in there. e: someone got the source above me. thanks mate.

on topic, i'd like to reiterate that i think these changes are kinda cool, but the more i think about the argument that the bastion mode being anathetical to the marauder's designation as skirmish ships. whilst most of my colleagues seem to be arguing for marauders to become MORE mobile i.e. lose the bastion immobility requirement, and then introduce a new T2 BS for bastion work, i personally think it should be opposite; marauders were always big heavy PvE boats, and if we're all being honest here, the bastion module's application is going to be heavily PvE-focused. (dat red cross menace, yknow). so i'd like to put a proposal, or support for an existing one, in for consideration.

by all means, create a third class of T2 battleship (and by all the gods, PLEASE base it off the hyperion hull for gallente <3<3<3) built for fast paced skirmish work. specifics i wont pretend to try to craft - i wouldnt trust my attempts to stay unbiased towards imbalance. however, i think that a solution akin to what i've outlined would be the most logical. perhaps a high base speed, or a "antisiege" module that increases propulsion mod speed bonuses and agility. it would have to extend bonuses to both MWD and AB, due to the simple fact that, if you leave out AB, the armor variants simply would not be used as far as i can see. however, i imagine a battleships' signature would be enough to deter large fleets of blapdread-resistant armortanking skirmish T2 BS things.
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#924 - 2013-08-30 21:55:48 UTC
Gone for a day and the forum explodes
holy ****

I'm going to miss the webs though, this looks all very interesting, looking forward to how they will transform.

Will comment more later
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#925 - 2013-08-30 21:56:02 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I'm fairly sure the reactive armor hardener and damage controls don't stack with each other.
You may just be confusing this with the way resistance bonuses work to begin with.



Quote:
If you only fit one or the other (one Damage Control or one Reactive Hardener), then they are never stacking penalized. They will always give their full damage resistance effect, along with your most effective module that also gives it's full effect as explained above, followed by any other modules that will be stacking penalized. This is one reason why the Damage Control module is so popular; because it is always 100% effective.

If, however, you fit both, then one of them (whichever is less effective) will count as a second module and be stacking penalized accordingly (so, 86.9% effective). This is in addition to your normal resistance modules, of which one will give its full effect and the rest stacking penalized as explained above.

As an example, consider the following five modules all fitted to your fit and their resulting effectiveness: one Damage Control (100% effective), and one Reactive Armor Hardener (86.9% effective); one Armor EM Hardener (100% effective), one Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane (EM resistance 86.9% effective, other resistances 100% effective), and one Adaptive Nano Plating (EM resistance 57.1% effective, other resistances 86.9% effective)



Source


Yeah I did the math on it (in the edit to my post), but you were right.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Retmas
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#926 - 2013-08-30 21:58:55 UTC
Snopzet wrote:
What about....

add 100% reduction of weapon reload time while in bastion mode?


So you can instantly switch between long range and short range, or the damage type.



because then one of the strengths of lasers becomes obsolete as regards this hull, which unnecessarily strips an advantage from a weapons system with quite a few disadvantages, large cap use in particular.

lasers right now are in balance only because the great strengths of lasers (scorch, good DPS/refire, great ammo versatility) pull the great weakenesses (eggregious cap usage, mediocre tracking, locked damage) out of the proverbial fire.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#927 - 2013-08-30 22:07:45 UTC
I am not really happy to see everyone beging for more and more dps, i dont think thats a good direction, in the end it leads us to a "Need for Speed" like event where Alpha and DPS got nerfed like Nanos got back then...
Amadeus3
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#928 - 2013-08-30 22:18:09 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Hmm, this is unique and fun CCP :),

For PvE those will a beast ships:

1) long range as needed.
2) 2 flights of small drones - sufficient for PvE (no idea why people ***** about that - I already use 2 flights of small drones and 1 flight of salvage drones in my Paladin).
3) I didn't like the web bonus - I could not hit frigs anyway , and everything else was shot down just fine.
4) insane omni tank - the resists are still low but with 135% rep bonus it does not matter.
5) ewar immunity will just make other ships obsolete in lvl 4 missions (hope it works on tracing disruption).
6) they could use small dps bonus (like 10% or 15 %) but will still be good without it.

However for PvP:

1) no buffer
2) no dps advantage
3) immobile
4) asking for tornado alpha strike
5) still can be caped out I imagine and killed by small gang
6) asking for dreadnoughts guns attention
7) can't be remotely repped (no one will fly such an expensive ship without remote reps)
8) no real advantage over anything currently in use
9) can dominate next Alliance Tournament but only in this form of PvP it has its uses.




It's a long post but worth quoting IMHO. I can see how the proposed marauders will rule in PVE but I can't see them being used in PVP (outside of a few niche applications).
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#929 - 2013-08-30 22:20:56 UTC
What small gang situation are you talking about that sees battleships alpha'd off the field?

And yes, it is insane firepower because you can get away with fitting less tank mods on the armor ships. Either that or you could just go with insane tank. Not to mention the firepower is also higher due to the massively increased damage projection.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#930 - 2013-08-30 22:22:20 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I am not really happy to see everyone beging for more and more dps, i dont think thats a good direction, in the end it leads us to a "Need for Speed" like event where Alpha and DPS got nerfed like Nanos got back then...


well the problem is in eve it usually boils down to dps, you want dps for what you are putting into it... isk.... sp... etc. But this ship requires a lot of investment in both isk and sp, and right now, its bonuses dont offer anything we cant do cheaper or lower sp right now.

a great imobile tank isnt very useful, and thats really all this ship is. Its got range, sure, but we already have good ships for that which are cheaper on isk/sp and Those ships arent imobile. You can say the same thing for ships with insane tanks.

The new marauder just doesnt give anything we dont already have.... it *might* be useful.... if there was a kind of mission or something you Need absurd tank for, maybe....but those situations usually are in low/null/wh and then you are dead. Anyone with a fast tackle.... warp scrambler.... and your high sp gankbait is gone.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#931 - 2013-08-30 22:22:28 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The DC2 increases armor resist by 15% (or in other words "removes" 15% of the damage that the ship still takes).



Thanks for explaining that, but as a matter of fact I used to make my own excel spreadsheets to calculate stuff like that before EFT was around.

Now all we need is a dev to answer our questions :).
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#932 - 2013-08-30 22:24:59 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
What small gang situation are you talking about that sees battleships alpha'd off the field?

And yes, it is insane firepower because you can get away with fitting less tank mods on the armor ships. Either that or you could just go with insane tank. Not to mention the firepower is also higher due to the massively increased damage projection.


the damage is only higher if you are firing at a range that your guns dont currently hit at - so if you are either moving towards or webbing your target then you dont need to hit far and these ships dont do any extra damage, no benifit.

Less tank mods? Meaning that when not in bastion mode, really weak tank? Sounds like a great idea.

Insane tank? hmm....imobile gankbait slowly waiting its death....
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#933 - 2013-08-30 22:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lephia DeGrande
Battle Cube wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I am not really happy to see everyone beging for more and more dps, i dont think thats a good direction, in the end it leads us to a "Need for Speed" like event where Alpha and DPS got nerfed like Nanos got back then...


well the problem is in eve it usually boils down to dps, you want dps for what you are putting into it... isk.... sp... etc. But this ship requires a lot of investment in both isk and sp, and right now, its bonuses dont offer anything we cant do cheaper or lower sp right now.

a great imobile tank isnt very useful, and thats really all this ship is. Its got range, sure, but we already have good ships for that which are cheaper on isk/sp and Those ships arent imobile. You can say the same thing for ships with insane tanks.

The new marauder just doesnt give anything we dont already have.... it *might* be useful.... if there was a kind of mission or something you Need absurd tank for, maybe....but those situations usually are in low/null/wh and then you are dead. Anyone with a fast tackle.... warp scrambler.... and your high sp gankbait is gone.


Your right, but i am just worried about the actual situation where the DPS and Manpower just achieve some ridiculous amount, its just a risky combination.

My post was more a reflection about the Community and their wishes.
Draco Zhuangli
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#934 - 2013-08-30 22:30:03 UTC
This is an interesting idea, however I want to point out one major flaw in the "objectives" of this change.
Plain and simple this is all about "harassing tactics." I can imagine a gang of Marauders who are well coordinated and jump all around target(s) with the MJD's. Once they determine the speed of their target they will be able to calculate how much distance they need between them before they jump. Could be kinda fun.

But...the little part mentioned about stepping stones to a capital ship, dont appear to be valid.
Quote:
This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation.


I bring this up because I looked at the training time difference between a Marauder and a Dreadnought. Due mostly to the training required to get to T2 weapons for the Maurader, in the case of this example a Vargur, the training time is almost double that of the Dreadnought. Capital weapons dont have T2 versions as far as I know, and I expect that some day the "tiercide" will involve weapons too (??) But until then, all the specialists skills needed from small, to medium to large to operate the T2 weapons is far longer than getting into a Capital ship. You could fly a Vargur with T1 weapons but thats a bit useless isn't it?

In my opinion, a stepping stone is a point in the middle, where upon reached allows you to continue on to the far side. If I were an INDIVIDUAL planning a training que for Capitals, I would go straight for the Capital. No reason at all to include the Marauder. It is not a stepping stone.

This change does not do much for the individual and is designed more for the big fleet fights, alliance tournaments, etc.

So please take out the part about being a stepping stone, unless you address the weapon training lengths.

Lee Church
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#935 - 2013-08-30 22:30:45 UTC
Does the Bastion mode have a cooldown after each 60 second cycle? or will it continue onto the next cycle like an armor repairer would unless it was deactivated mid cycle?
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#936 - 2013-08-30 22:31:07 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I am not really happy to see everyone beging for more and more dps, i dont think thats a good direction, in the end it leads us to a "Need for Speed" like event where Alpha and DPS got nerfed like Nanos got back then...


well the problem is in eve it usually boils down to dps, you want dps for what you are putting into it... isk.... sp... etc. But this ship requires a lot of investment in both isk and sp, and right now, its bonuses dont offer anything we cant do cheaper or lower sp right now.

a great imobile tank isnt very useful, and thats really all this ship is. Its got range, sure, but we already have good ships for that which are cheaper on isk/sp and Those ships arent imobile. You can say the same thing for ships with insane tanks.

The new marauder just doesnt give anything we dont already have.... it *might* be useful.... if there was a kind of mission or something you Need absurd tank for, maybe....but those situations usually are in low/null/wh and then you are dead. Anyone with a fast tackle.... warp scrambler.... and your high sp gankbait is gone.


Your right, but i am just worried about the actual situation where the DPS and Manpower just achieve some ridiculous amount, its an risky combination.

My post was more a reflection about the Community and their wishes.


i know what you mean, but if there was ever a situation where it was warranted i would say it is this. it needs to be really good at SOMETHING for all that you put into it. Right now it has a hodgepodge of different... "interesting" bonuses.....

if its not going to have insane dps at least make its tank such that it cant be alpha'ed due to low buffer.... something....it just feels kind of half-assed.
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#937 - 2013-08-30 22:31:39 UTC
Greetings CCP.

While it seems you're willing to change the mauraders I do not believe you're willing to buff them enough to be useful for the cost or skill requirements that they have for any purpose other than highsec mission running.

I've got a shiny kronos that once in a while (years now) i'll hop in and go run L4s blitzing away.

It's setup with an omnitank, 425s. and Afterburner and primarily does sniper kiting tactics, It's a fun setup and is very survivable.

The baston module to me has little or no appeal for this setup, it already has plenty of range and tank and its own movement helps maintain tracking. the MJD bonus could be handy, but i really dont see myself fitting one over the afterburner, which would take away a cap recharger or a tracking computer.

So my *wishlist* for my long unused shiny ship of olde would be

1) don't nerf the speed on the hull
2) give them some better base cap regen
3) don't nerf my drone bay
4) give them proper sensor strengths
5) you're adding a high slot for the bastion module, an argument could be made that a midslot should be added for the MJD as this seems to be a staple for how it is intended to operate.

The bastion module.....
I'm really not digging this thing, its only purpose is mission running, if you were to pvp with it its like a dreadnaught with 1/12 the ehp, 1/10th the damage, 1/4 the tank for 1/2 the price, its going to get splattered by any formidable crew of subcaps.

1) remove the weapons timer - this things already going to have issues in pvp, this is insult to injury.
2) add some kind of a damage bonus, i'd like to see maybe 1200-1300 dps from 425s on a kronos when using this module, prolly about 2k dps when using blasters, too lazy to do the math for the percentages, at least im not asking for crazyness like 3-4k like others.
3) add some kind of energy neut protection, this thing pretty much has every form of defense covered except that, add a base 25% reflect when the bastion module is activated maybe? I mean this is basically a 2 trick pony if you're going to sit still with your 1bil base hull cost shiny thing using the godmode defensive module of the century it should at least have all the obvious vulnerabilities plugged.
Dalphon Haman
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#938 - 2013-08-30 22:36:07 UTC
I keep seeing people saying the tractor beam bonus is obsolete. It's only obsolete because the bonuses are better on the Noctis. If My Kronos had the same tractors as the Noctis, I would use it much more, even if I only had 2 vs 4. Having 2 tractors and a salvager are great, especially when running the Epic Arcs jumping all over the place. Ain't nobody got time to be moving 2 ships around like that.
Snopzet
Inglourious Squirrels
That Escalated Quickly.
#939 - 2013-08-30 22:36:18 UTC
Retmas wrote:
Snopzet wrote:
What about....

add 100% reduction of weapon reload time while in bastion mode?


So you can instantly switch between long range and short range, or the damage type.



because then one of the strengths of lasers becomes obsolete as regards this hull, which unnecessarily strips an advantage from a weapons system with quite a few disadvantages, large cap use in particular.

lasers right now are in balance only because the great strengths of lasers (scorch, good DPS/refire, great ammo versatility) pull the great weakenesses (eggregious cap usage, mediocre tracking, locked damage) out of the proverbial fire.


I thought about that at first, too. But if you compare the dps between the golem, paladin and vargur at 65km vs a cruiser, the paladin is king. The golem has hard times to even reach that distance (javelin + 2 t2 rigs do the trick) but this means you have to sacrifice rigor rigs and 2 target painters won't help much against cruisers at this distance. Additionally, the paladin can use tons of different ammunition to get the best dps AND it has tracking computers (up to three) to optimize tracking or optimal. The golem can switch between three distances and if you want the best dps your max range is 45km. The vargur uses mostly tracking enhancers and shots in falloff. So I'm not that sure, if it is that bad. Yes, it is a "nerf" for the paladin (boost for the others), but one which doesn't hurt too much.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#940 - 2013-08-30 22:43:42 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Less tank mods? Meaning that when not in bastion mode, really weak tank? Sounds like a great idea.

Which is balanced by the fact that you can microjump immediately after leaving bastion mode, assuming you're not scrammed in the 9 to 11.4 seconds between leaving bastion, starting the MJD cycle, and microjumping.
Of course this depends entirely on how it works. Maybe if you time it right you could even activate the MJD near the end of bastion mode, leave bastion mode, and microjump immediately without the spool up time, giving people very little time to scram you.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)