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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Scarlet Thellere
Natasha Aleksejewa Republik
#861 - 2013-08-30 18:53:36 UTC
Some dps bonus in bastion should be in place. Yea, you will be able to tank small gank, but they will be free to just move away from you while you are locked in place for 1min AND you can't get reps, or they can just suck your cap dry and 50% of Marauders will stop shooting and repping leaving only Vargur and golem really viable for pvp. Just not worth it in pvp.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#862 - 2013-08-30 18:55:00 UTC
nahjustwarpin wrote:
i like how devs rebalanced other ship, but i think this time you chose wrong path.

this rebalance is a clear nerf to marauders without bastion mod in what was considered staple trait of kronos and paladin, web bonus. also reduction of drone bay, and big speed nerf can't go unnoticed.

But what we got is mod that allows to almost tank every mission/complex in game. What if i told you that we can do it already and bastion module doesn't improve anything in here? problem is those little pesky t2 npc frigs, that can get under your gun and without web bonuses, you'll start losing time to take them down because you'll often have to mjd away and back.


I believe that is why god created light drones.

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Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#863 - 2013-08-30 18:56:22 UTC
I really like the changes but i have a game mechanics question?

Why is the mass being increased on the marauders? I'm guessing that increasing the mass has a direct impact on the agility and acceleration of the ship...

As a wormholer, battle ship mass is already too restrictive and so increasing it means a lot of people (especially in low class WHs) won't be able to use these new ships.

@ CCP, if you can adjust the agility/velocity/acceleration without increasing the mass, please do that because it would be nice to fly something other that T3 in W-space

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#864 - 2013-08-30 18:58:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
nahjustwarpin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Hope the feedback on webs is being noted, its really quite simple:

Kronos=Duvolle
Duvolle=Blasters
Blasters=webs

If you fit blasters to a battleship hull 'damage projection' is not about using Null (tough break for non T2 guns eh?)... its quite simply about pinning a target in place (90% web) and smashing it to pieces with max damage ammo - this was the beauty of the blasterthron of old; pile into the enemy(s) at point blank and do or die.

If you remove the web bonus from the Kronos you delete the last pure-bred Gallente blasterboat.

X

A web bonus is great for in your face battles, but for the most part these ships are designed to fight at range. Granted, we will see folks use their MJD's to land on top of their enemy, but to make the most of their abilities they'll use their bastion module and be immobile... meaning that unless they are stupid they will have other ships at hand to perform tackle and web.


you know that with removal of web bonus, you could be scrammed by an assault frig that can alsoturn your mjd off while few alpha ships pick you off? it's not for pvp. it was stated already

I believe this is why god created Large Neuts.

Also, whats not for PVP? MJD's?

Please find me the quote that says you're not supposed to use them for PVP. Smile

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nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#865 - 2013-08-30 18:59:23 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Of course there will be a lot of complaints, there always is when something will need to be used differently than what people are used to.

Of course the use of MJD's is becoming commonly adopted by mission runners, so that opposition should die out fairly quickly.

For PVP use a group of Marauders would be an ideal compliment to a group of sentry wielding Domi's, since neither group relies on conventional mobility.

It might even be worth mounting that module (whose name I never can remember) that breaks target locks more effectively the more people are targeting you. With it's huge tank bonus in Bastion mode, combined with that module, it may not miss having a dedicated logistics chain at all. Note, that's pure speculation. I have not used that module myself. Although if a change in bonuses is considered a boost to that module might be an appropriate alternative.



mjd is adopted by mission runners, because they use domis for that and have no range issues when sniping with drones. It becomes a problem when you have to mjd away in a short range boat, because you won't be able to apply damage for next 2 minutes. and if you plan to fit rail or beams on palading, then just stop wasting your ammo and get a domi, you'll do the same dps with it.

for PVP, do you really think your marauder will suddenly become a fortress able to tank 20000 dps alone? No, you won't even have enough buffer to survive 5 seconds of 50 sentry domis hitting you at once
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#866 - 2013-08-30 19:00:41 UTC
nahjustwarpin wrote:
i like how devs rebalanced other ship, but i think this time you chose wrong path.

this rebalance is a clear nerf to marauders without bastion mod in what was considered staple trait of kronos and paladin, web bonus. also reduction of drone bay, and big speed nerf can't go unnoticed.

But what we got is mod that allows to almost tank every mission/complex in game. What if i told you that we can do it already and bastion module doesn't improve anything in here? problem is those little pesky t2 npc frigs, that can get under your gun and without web bonuses, you'll start losing time to take them down because you'll often have to mjd away and back.




i agree so much with everything this guy just said
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#867 - 2013-08-30 19:01:51 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
i like how devs rebalanced other ship, but i think this time you chose wrong path.

this rebalance is a clear nerf to marauders without bastion mod in what was considered staple trait of kronos and paladin, web bonus. also reduction of drone bay, and big speed nerf can't go unnoticed.

But what we got is mod that allows to almost tank every mission/complex in game. What if i told you that we can do it already and bastion module doesn't improve anything in here? problem is those little pesky t2 npc frigs, that can get under your gun and without web bonuses, you'll start losing time to take them down because you'll often have to mjd away and back.


I believe that is why god created light drones.


all 5 of those light drones.....and if 1 or 2 die well.... haha ...ha....ha
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#868 - 2013-08-30 19:03:11 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Hope the feedback on webs is being noted, its really quite simple:

Kronos=Duvolle
Duvolle=Blasters
Blasters=webs

If you fit blasters to a battleship hull 'damage projection' is not about using Null (tough break for non T2 guns eh?)... its quite simply about pinning a target in place (90% web) and smashing it to pieces with max damage ammo - this was the beauty of the blasterthron of old; pile into the enemy(s) at point blank and do or die.

If you remove the web bonus from the Kronos you delete the last pure-bred Gallente blasterboat.

X

A web bonus is great for in your face battles, but for the most part these ships are designed to fight at range. Granted, we will see folks use their MJD's to land on top of their enemy, but to make the most of their abilities they'll use their bastion module and be immobile... meaning that unless they are stupid they will have other ships at hand to perform tackle and web.


you know that with removal of web bonus, you could be scrammed by an assault frig that can alsoturn your mjd off while few alpha ships pick you off? it's not for pvp. it was stated already

I believe this is why god created Large Neuts.


there's a module called nosferatu, which is also buffed in odyssey. With scram requiring about 1Gj/s your neut can run all the time, because my nos will give me enough cap to perma scram you
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#869 - 2013-08-30 19:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
nahjustwarpin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Of course there will be a lot of complaints, there always is when something will need to be used differently than what people are used to.

Of course the use of MJD's is becoming commonly adopted by mission runners, so that opposition should die out fairly quickly.

For PVP use a group of Marauders would be an ideal compliment to a group of sentry wielding Domi's, since neither group relies on conventional mobility.

It might even be worth mounting that module (whose name I never can remember) that breaks target locks more effectively the more people are targeting you. With it's huge tank bonus in Bastion mode, combined with that module, it may not miss having a dedicated logistics chain at all. Note, that's pure speculation. I have not used that module myself. Although if a change in bonuses is considered a boost to that module might be an appropriate alternative.



mjd is adopted by mission runners, because they use domis for that and have no range issues when sniping with drones. It becomes a problem when you have to mjd away in a short range boat, because you won't be able to apply damage for next 2 minutes. and if you plan to fit rail or beams on palading, then just stop wasting your ammo and get a domi, you'll do the same dps with it.

for PVP, do you really think your marauder will suddenly become a fortress able to tank 20000 dps alone? No, you won't even have enough buffer to survive 5 seconds of 50 sentry domis hitting you at once


I think you'll be hard pressed to find support for your theory that MJD's are only good for PVE. Smile

Even so, you do realize that if your "short range boat" does need to MJD out even the shortest ranged weapon will have around a 60km range (more if you set up for additional range).

These boats will come pretty close to that 20k mark, depending on your fit. However, I doubt that these boats will be used that often in super blob fights. At that point anything will do because anything on the field will be instant alpha'd, logistics present or not.

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Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#870 - 2013-08-30 19:06:54 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Just another quick update.


  • We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIE™ SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.

  • We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.


Adjusting OP to reflect this.

EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.

I like this quick feedback thing. More please!

swap tractor for something awesome


TARGET BREAKER!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Twisted

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#871 - 2013-08-30 19:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Invisusira
nahjustwarpin wrote:
mjd is adopted by mission runners, because they use domis for that and have no range issues when sniping with drones. It becomes a problem when you have to mjd away in a short range boat, because you won't be able to apply damage for next 2 minutes. and if you plan to fit rail or beams on palading, then just stop wasting your ammo and get a domi, you'll do the same dps with it.

I know you're used to Rat frigates that travel at 300 m/s, but you do realize that in PvP a frigate can close the MJD gap in a matter of seconds, right?

EVE Music
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#872 - 2013-08-30 19:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
nahjustwarpin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Hope the feedback on webs is being noted, its really quite simple:

Kronos=Duvolle
Duvolle=Blasters
Blasters=webs

If you fit blasters to a battleship hull 'damage projection' is not about using Null (tough break for non T2 guns eh?)... its quite simply about pinning a target in place (90% web) and smashing it to pieces with max damage ammo - this was the beauty of the blasterthron of old; pile into the enemy(s) at point blank and do or die.

If you remove the web bonus from the Kronos you delete the last pure-bred Gallente blasterboat.

X

A web bonus is great for in your face battles, but for the most part these ships are designed to fight at range. Granted, we will see folks use their MJD's to land on top of their enemy, but to make the most of their abilities they'll use their bastion module and be immobile... meaning that unless they are stupid they will have other ships at hand to perform tackle and web.


you know that with removal of web bonus, you could be scrammed by an assault frig that can alsoturn your mjd off while few alpha ships pick you off? it's not for pvp. it was stated already

I believe this is why god created Large Neuts.


there's a module called nosferatu, which is also buffed in odyssey. With scram requiring about 1Gj/s your neut can run all the time, because my nos will give me enough cap to perma scram you

Preaching to the choir son, but there are ways around that... particularly since you have multiple utility high slots to work with. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#873 - 2013-08-30 19:09:24 UTC
The Kid thought he might transform himself into somethin' a bit more.... formidable.

EVE Music
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#874 - 2013-08-30 19:10:55 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Of course there will be a lot of complaints, there always is when something will need to be used differently than what people are used to.

Of course the use of MJD's is becoming commonly adopted by mission runners, so that opposition should die out fairly quickly.

For PVP use a group of Marauders would be an ideal compliment to a group of sentry wielding Domi's, since neither group relies on conventional mobility.

It might even be worth mounting that module (whose name I never can remember) that breaks target locks more effectively the more people are targeting you. With it's huge tank bonus in Bastion mode, combined with that module, it may not miss having a dedicated logistics chain at all. Note, that's pure speculation. I have not used that module myself. Although if a change in bonuses is considered a boost to that module might be an appropriate alternative.



mjd is adopted by mission runners, because they use domis for that and have no range issues when sniping with drones. It becomes a problem when you have to mjd away in a short range boat, because you won't be able to apply damage for next 2 minutes. and if you plan to fit rail or beams on palading, then just stop wasting your ammo and get a domi, you'll do the same dps with it.

for PVP, do you really think your marauder will suddenly become a fortress able to tank 20000 dps alone? No, you won't even have enough buffer to survive 5 seconds of 50 sentry domis hitting you at once


I think you'll be hard pressed to find support for your theory that MJD's are only good for PVE. Smile

Even so, you do realize that if your "short range boat" does need to MJD out even the shortest ranged weapon will have around a 60km range (more if you set up for additional range).


sorry, but blasters with VOID have 7+6k range, if i'll start shooting with NULL, it's 12.6+16.8 and does only about 1k dps with 3 fed magstabs. why would i fly a 1b ship that gain 25% of that range when i can just field 10x cheaper domi that actually has buffer and does 80% of that damage and ALSO can mjd away? hell i could even use an active tanked hyperion because it MOVES
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#875 - 2013-08-30 19:12:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
/facepalm

Edit: I "really" need to bookmark this thread for future nose rubbing purposes.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#876 - 2013-08-30 19:17:11 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Lixia Saran wrote:
Jessica Danikov wrote:

Who doesn't want a Bastion Rokh? Makes a lot more sense than trying to twist the Raven/Golem into it.


Golem with the Rokh hull? YOU HAVE MY VOTE!

seriously, the Rokh needs a faction / Tech 2 hull. Scorpions and Ravens already have their multiple versions.


blops rokh with kaalakiota colors is what we really need :|

Transforming Abaddon hull Paladin...

It would take a bit getting used to.
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#877 - 2013-08-30 19:17:11 UTC
Invisusira wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
mjd is adopted by mission runners, because they use domis for that and have no range issues when sniping with drones. It becomes a problem when you have to mjd away in a short range boat, because you won't be able to apply damage for next 2 minutes. and if you plan to fit rail or beams on palading, then just stop wasting your ammo and get a domi, you'll do the same dps with it.

I know you're used to Rat frigates that travel at 300 m/s, but you do realize that in PvP a frigate can close the MJD gap in a matter of seconds, right?


read first few words,
Quote:
mission runners
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#878 - 2013-08-30 19:19:19 UTC
not good for PvE?

Are you ******* kidding me?

This is awesome. Had no reason to get into a Vargur, Ever. Now I does.

Thank you CCP, from the bottom of my isogen drained bittervet heart.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#879 - 2013-08-30 19:20:37 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Sekeris wrote:
Veng3ance wrote:
Honestly this is all pretty worthless without a damage increase from the bastion module.

They will just get blapped super fast by any sized fleet and the benefit of having extra range and tracking is NOT going to make it worth using.


Considering that they lost a fair portion of thier drone dps some sort of dmg boost would be nice, it does not have to be times crazy like the dreads, but a 50, or 100% dmg boost would make this worth something. The dammage projection is very nice, as is the tank, but i needs something a little extra.



I'd be happy with even a 25-50%(someone can run numbers if they want and tell me exactly how wrong I am for the goal as stated below).

Just enough to put them at the same level or just above Pirate BS while in Bastion, but below them while out.

Choosing RR/mobility or Damage.

Again, I don't think a damage boost is warranted here. I'd be happy with a 25% Tracking/Explosion bonus. Same DPS, but more of it is applied. Fits the stated role rather well, I think.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#880 - 2013-08-30 19:23:02 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Just another quick update.


  • We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIE™ SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.

  • We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.


Adjusting OP to reflect this.

EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.


I'd prefer a new skill over a carebear industry skill tbh.