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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#741 - 2013-08-30 15:34:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Any possibility of doing something with DPS (damage or rate of fire) or accuracy (tracking speed, explosion radius and explosion velocity) while in Bastion mode? And I'll echo the comments to nix the additional high slot in favor of a mid slow to offset the MJD.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#742 - 2013-08-30 15:34:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Ayame Chidori wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
.... We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. ...


Ok, so now I have only 5 light drones. How I am supposed to kill PVE tacklers?


MJD away from them and kill them as they approach? NPC tacklers can't keep you from MJDing.

Quote:

Before drone AI change it was ok, after change it became pain, when light drones are now nearly instapopped by tacklers. With 75 drone bay I have 2 complete replacements, when you take it away, all 5 my light drones die fast and me being scrambled... what is your advice? Selfdestruct? Cause tacklers cannot kill me, but neither can I kill scrambling frigs and cannot leave mission.


See above, if you fit properly (every pve battleship should have an MJD as it is a "get out of jail free" card), you're concerns are moot.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#743 - 2013-08-30 15:34:40 UTC
Ayame Chidori wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
.... We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. ...


Ok, so now I have only 5 light drones. How I am supposed to kill PVE tacklers? Before drone AI change it was ok, after change it became pain, when light drones are now nearly instapopped by tacklers. With 75 drone bay I have 2 complete replacements, when you take it away, all 5 my light drones die fast and me being scrambled... what is your advice? Selfdestruct? Cause tacklers cannot kill me, but neither can I kill scrambling frigs and cannot leave mission.


reminds me of the last time i flew sansha side in worlds collide.... yeah....i came out with 2 drones left....out of i dont know how many. It would have taken hours if not more if i didnt have an alt come in with his drones
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#744 - 2013-08-30 15:37:15 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Berluth Luthian wrote:
The TP cycle time is for all TPs right? Not just on golems? That's an odd note to sneak this in on...


I read it as just on Marauders i.e. Golems but CCP Ytterbium please clarify this change.


Target painter cycle reduction is on the module themselves.


Well blow me sideways, that was a cheeky little change but very much welcomed. Thank you CCP Ytterbium.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#745 - 2013-08-30 15:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Keith Planck
Battle Cube wrote:
as much as i first hated the idea, and still do, i could see this (rediculous) change being good for something.... basically.. only if they give it a massive dps bonus in bastion mode


and personally i'd rather have ridiculous buffer (instead of local rep bonus) during bastion, so that it has to come out of bastion for reps. I could see this being great tactical use for small groups in pvp or pve..... you got your damage dealer but he needs support.

if additional buffer were added - and bastion mode balanced to stay where ccp wants it - i could see the non-bastion mode of the marauder actually being useful. I remember when i used to fit the vargur not only did it have terrible pg, but fitting a good tank on it was also a detriment to dps

especially if this is supposed to be a 'stepping stone', and seeing ccps view that everything should have a purpose - nonbastion mode needs to provide something. currently..... just mjd.... on a slow ship.... with low tank....


"encouraging" poeple to put an mjd on it....why do you want to do that in the first place? Thats like "encouraging" someone to wear a cast by breaking their arm. Try another word - more along the lines of coercion. Why not just give it a bonus without gimping it for everyone who DOESNT want to use an MJD on it?


Combined with ancillary reppers the defense bonus is ~effectively buffer

I think a duel x-large ancillary vargurs going to destroy some things in lowsec...

♞
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#746 - 2013-08-30 15:38:17 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Target painter cycle reduction is on the module themselves.


Any chance of getting this as an Odyssey 1.2x patch before the Winter expansion?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#747 - 2013-08-30 15:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Ayame Chidori wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
.... We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. ...


Ok, so now I have only 5 light drones. How I am supposed to kill PVE tacklers? Before drone AI change it was ok, after change it became pain, when light drones are now nearly instapopped by tacklers. With 75 drone bay I have 2 complete replacements, when you take it away, all 5 my light drones die fast and me being scrambled... what is your advice? Selfdestruct? Cause tacklers cannot kill me, but neither can I kill scrambling frigs and cannot leave mission.

never have I ever needed more than five light drones on any of my mission ships. i'm not sure what "it" is, but you are doing it terribly wrong.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#748 - 2013-08-30 15:38:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ayame Chidori wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
.... We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. ...


Ok, so now I have only 5 light drones. How I am supposed to kill PVE tacklers?


MJD away from them and kill them as they approach? NPC tacklers can't keep you from MJDing.

Quote:

Before drone AI change it was ok, after change it became pain, when light drones are now nearly instapopped by tacklers. With 75 drone bay I have 2 complete replacements, when you take it away, all 5 my light drones die fast and me being scrambled... what is your advice? Selfdestruct? Cause tacklers cannot kill me, but neither can I kill scrambling frigs and cannot leave mission.


See above, if you fit properly (every pve battleship should have an MJD as it is a "get out of jail free" card), you're concerns are moot.



....every pve battleship should have an MJD on it...... .
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#749 - 2013-08-30 15:38:56 UTC
So why are we getting a new skill instead of doing the sensible thing and linking this new module to Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration?
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#750 - 2013-08-30 15:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
Keith Planck wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
as much as i first hated the idea, and still do, i could see this (rediculous) change being good for something.... basically.. only if they give it a massive dps bonus in bastion mode


and personally i'd rather have ridiculous buffer (instead of local rep bonus) during bastion, so that it has to come out of bastion for reps. I could see this being great tactical use for small groups in pvp or pve..... you got your damage dealer but he needs support.

if additional buffer were added - and bastion mode balanced to stay where ccp wants it - i could see the non-bastion mode of the marauder actually being useful. I remember when i used to fit the vargur not only did it have terrible pg, but fitting a good tank on it was also a detriment to dps

especially if this is supposed to be a 'stepping stone', and seeing ccps view that everything should have a purpose - nonbastion mode needs to provide something. currently..... just mjd.... on a slow ship.... with low tank....


"encouraging" poeple to put an mjd on it....why do you want to do that in the first place? Thats like "encouraging" someone to wear a cast by breaking their arm. Try another word - more along the lines of coercion. Why not just give it a bonus without gimping it for everyone who DOESNT want to use an MJD on it?


Combined with ancillary reppers the defense bonus is ~effectively buffer

I think a duel x-large ancillary vargurs going to destroy some things in lowsec...


rep and buffer are still different things, i was talking about buffer, not rep, buffer =/= rep

for example, with buffer instead of rep, you can GET repped by an ally, making it more useful in Many situations.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#751 - 2013-08-30 15:41:21 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ayame Chidori wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
.... We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. ...


Ok, so now I have only 5 light drones. How I am supposed to kill PVE tacklers?


MJD away from them and kill them as they approach? NPC tacklers can't keep you from MJDing.

Quote:

Before drone AI change it was ok, after change it became pain, when light drones are now nearly instapopped by tacklers. With 75 drone bay I have 2 complete replacements, when you take it away, all 5 my light drones die fast and me being scrambled... what is your advice? Selfdestruct? Cause tacklers cannot kill me, but neither can I kill scrambling frigs and cannot leave mission.


See above, if you fit properly (every pve battleship should have an MJD as it is a "get out of jail free" card), you're concerns are moot.



....every pve battleship should have an MJD on it...... .


Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.
Random Woman
Very Professional Corporation
#752 - 2013-08-30 15:41:27 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Random Woman wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those P


Someone wants to say hallo: click me

I think you manage just fine without a new skill and without strontium. Try at least to put some effort in those excuses. Or be honest: "We put a new 8x Skill in, because we can." , is a more valid reason than that strotium lie.



Do you know how big strotium unit is? 3 m3. Do you really want your cargohold full of those?

Reason why fuel works for Black Ops, Dreads, Carriers, Supers is that they have special fuel bay.



I just wanted to point out that their excuse is bullshit, just because a skill reduces stront amount it doesnt means the module needs to use stront, just like with the blackops. But here I am explaining such things to team trisomie 21.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#753 - 2013-08-30 15:43:21 UTC
Yeah definitely should be linked into the dread skill chain IMO.

The more I read about it tho the more I think for PVP action taking away the 90% web bonus is going to massively reduce their use to far more niche roles (and the vargur and golem for not having that bonus at all).

I'm not against the idea itself but so far as an evolution of Marauders I'm seeing more negatives than positives from the change and theres definitely a lot more thinking through the idea required.
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#754 - 2013-08-30 15:44:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sofia Wolf
Bastion module seems kind of pointless. It is useless for 0.0 PvE because no sane person doing anoms, missions or sigs in 0.0 would activate module that would lock him in place for entire minute for anybody to find him, scram him and cino in entire gang to kill him. Good side is that it is also useless for blob warfare because it blocks remote assists. Some possible use for bastion would be for people that like to fly solo pvp brawling battleships...

Also I don't see marauders being much used for higsec missions because those often involve transiting between acceleration gates that are often to close for MJD to be of any use, so speed nerf significantly reduces their PvE utility. There is a reason why Macs are so popular among L4 mission blitzers, and that reason is it's speed. So as marauders speed is getting nerfed I predict their popularity will decline for mission runners.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#755 - 2013-08-30 15:44:10 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
as much as i first hated the idea, and still do, i could see this (rediculous) change being good for something.... basically.. only if they give it a massive dps bonus in bastion mode


and personally i'd rather have ridiculous buffer (instead of local rep bonus) during bastion, so that it has to come out of bastion for reps. I could see this being great tactical use for small groups in pvp or pve..... you got your damage dealer but he needs support.

if additional buffer were added - and bastion mode balanced to stay where ccp wants it - i could see the non-bastion mode of the marauder actually being useful. I remember when i used to fit the vargur not only did it have terrible pg, but fitting a good tank on it was also a detriment to dps

especially if this is supposed to be a 'stepping stone', and seeing ccps view that everything should have a purpose - nonbastion mode needs to provide something. currently..... just mjd.... on a slow ship.... with low tank....


"encouraging" poeple to put an mjd on it....why do you want to do that in the first place? Thats like "encouraging" someone to wear a cast by breaking their arm. Try another word - more along the lines of coercion. Why not just give it a bonus without gimping it for everyone who DOESNT want to use an MJD on it?


Combined with ancillary reppers the defense bonus is ~effectively buffer

I think a duel x-large ancillary vargurs going to destroy some things in lowsec...


About 4 million EHP if you fit cargo expanders by my calculations.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#756 - 2013-08-30 15:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Sirinda wrote:
So why are we getting a new skill instead of doing the sensible thing and linking this new module to Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration?


As stated a few times but once more won't harm:

Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration reduces Strontium Clathrate consumption:

"Skill at the operation of siege modules. 25-unit reduction in strontium clathrate consumption amount for module activation per skill level."

As noted in the OP:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging.


And on the skill:

And those that don't have Tactical Reconfiguration trained will have to train that. At least this levels the playing field for this "New" adaptation of the Marauder Class coming in a bit. I think it's a good thing not to increase complexity on a ship that doesn't require it by it's very definition:

"Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments,"

You start adding fuel and it shortens the "prolonged deployment"

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#757 - 2013-08-30 15:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Ristlin Wakefield wrote:
Looks like a pretty useful ship for solo ships to clear out higher level DED sites and maybe incursion stuff.


No, the Marauder is now finished in Incursions, because "However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens."

So bottom line, the new module is completely useless in Incursions, and they lose their web bonus, and lose DPS because the drone bandwidth is one third of what it was.

Yeah, but this is working as designed, because the null sec cartels hate incursions, and anything they can do to wreck income in them, they will.


I got to agree here, this all but finishes the Paladins' and Kronos' usage in Armour fleets
BM mode in Incursions would indeed be synonomus with the term for a Bowel Movement ( without reps these things would just take a crap )
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#758 - 2013-08-30 15:44:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.




i dont use MJDs much, but i thought they were disrupted by warp scramblers? Do NPCs not do that? Or does it just not effect the MJD if it is an NPC?
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#759 - 2013-08-30 15:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
[/quote]

MJD away from them and kill them as they approach? NPC tacklers can't keep you from MJDing.



[/quote]

Or you could have enough drones or web bonus to deal with frigs not run away from them..but i guess doing it wrong is the right way nova days....

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
EXIA MIKOSZ
Strike Birds Zero
#760 - 2013-08-30 15:46:12 UTC
WOW
I Realy Love These Changes