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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Cyaron wars
Academia RED HOT Corporation
#681 - 2013-08-30 13:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyaron wars
Dear CCP,

watching the way you introduce ship balancing. PVP scenarios you are describing in your posts to justify changes for some ships, they are really outdated. It looks to me that your approach while balancing ship is "When I fly this ship my enemies become dumb pilots with no prop mod, no tackle and no tank fitted on their ships". This approach is outdated. It was a time when people were going solo roaming in battleships to 0.0 and melt some small gang. During those times New Eden was not populated as it is now, the environment for solo pvpers was more forgiving. In modern EVE we have blobs and huge incoming DPS to each ship. If you think that while in siege u can just blap all targets and then use MJD w/o being punished you must be mad. I do not really understand scenario in which you will come winner using marauder.
Scenario #1
So let's imagine I jump in, activate my MJD but getting scrambled, I go into bastion mode and all targets are close to me, falloff bonus doesn't do much here since every pilot will try to get his ship under my guns. Guess we need tracking.
Scenario #2
I warp at range to hostile fleet, activate siege and start shooting them. Unless enemy is complete ****** and is not burning straight at me or is not in a huge ship like BS, I will hard times killing him in 60 seconds. He will get on top of me and I will pretty much sitting duck.

Based on falloff bonus you want to assign I think you want some sort of sniping brawler, main component of successful sniping in mobility which is missing in this case.
Could you please be so kind and watch some PVP guides on youtube or elsewhere?

Also why missile boats do not receive bonuses like gun boats do? Why don't you give them something like explosion velocity or explosion radius bonus so they will apply more or less full dps to non stationary targets?

Once again, please stop trying to be smart ass. If you really wanted to make marauder a PVP ship all u had to do is increase sensor strength on it and perhaps give some extra PG/CPU.

As Russian soldiers like to say in army: Dear Officers, stop making a clever faces, don't forget who you are.
Lukas Rox
Aideron Technologies
#682 - 2013-08-30 14:05:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lukas Rox
Milton Middleson wrote:
Why not have the Bastion module just use Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration?


^^ This.

Also RIP Federation Navy stasis webs on Kronos... but the idea is good, just need some polishing.
I was wondering which ship will receive these "transition animations" that was shown on Fanfest.

I see new scenario for PVE Sniper Kronos - warp to mission, MJD 100km away, deploy, kill everything that moves and when timer ends, GTFO

In PVP... I can't really imagine a working PVP scenario with these changed Marauders... but I have never flown Marauders in PVP in the first place.

Proud developer of LMeve: Industry Contribution and Mass Production Tracker: https://github.com/roxlukas/lmeve | Blogging about EVE on http://pozniak.pl/wp/
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#683 - 2013-08-30 14:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
Mr Floydy wrote:
Mc Cormeg wrote:

If u got friends with tacklegear your enemy would first get rid of the tackling stuff und will then say "have an nice day". At the same time ur uber tank wil rendered useless because why on earth should i shoot your siege marauder if im tackled by a paper thin frig or cruiser?

So yea. The argument is there an valid but only if you deal with complete morons. Or in the other case, when you allready have more manpower. But then ur marauder is only more blob to the blob.


Correct, the enemy would be trying to get rid of your tackle - as you've forced their hand in making it the only valid target. Whilst in general it might be a case that you'd ignore the paper thin tackle ship and get rid of some incoming dps or logi should you aim to remain in the fight and win.

Lets say you're in a 10v10 fight, one or 2 of these landing on grid from one side are going to bring in Ewar and effectively dps immune projected damage that can be applied on the enemies. They deal decent damage, you can't stop them doing that damage, you can't kill them quickly - they force your hand to either retreat, or completely rethink the target calling.


Not really, sure if the one side without the Marauders are caught by surprise and didn't saw them early via scouting or dscan but even then you are only partialy correct. Lets play your scenario through but keep in mind you have just field roughly 3b in 2 BS sized ships.
A 10v10 in 90% of all case is with RR on both sides (means stuff is slowly dieing), i won't get into detailed setups as there are to many options but i can tell you the most likely scenario. The ones without Marauders will call in backup while they held tackle as long as possible on them while not shooting the Marauders or if they're good just chew through your support stuff and kill the Marauders afterwards.
Means in harsh words your uber tank is utterly useless and as the Bastion mode forces close range fights, your support has to be close to the bastioned Marauders so your superior range does not matter. What is left on those 1.5b price tagged BS is your E-War immunity. Nice and i mean it sarcastic.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#684 - 2013-08-30 14:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
This changes are pretty bad.

You wreck marauders with the speed nerf and removal of the 90% webs for basically any pve and pvp application and make them extreme niche ships(maybe beside the Paladin, since you don't need the web to mission in amarr space) that have fairly limited uses compared to a mwd fitted faction BS, both in pve and pvp. Nobody that uses marauders seriously needs that much tank on them, even the tank bonus as it is, is rather questionable(especially in RR environments like Incursions).

The Golem does need more speed and another torp damage application bonus, this changes don't touch the issues of the hull at all. The Kronos needs 2 full waves sentry's, some spare drones and the optimal/tracking drone bonus of the domi to make it a more useful alternative compared to the other rail/sentry platforms, nobody uses blasters on it(outside Incs), the falloff bonus is useless for rails and the changes cover not a single one of the issues(even worse it loses most of his dronebay). The Vargur needs another bonus to projectiles(extra tracking or optimal) to make it more different compared to the Mach, this changes doesn't address this at all. The Paladin is the only fairly good marauder, I would like the optimal bonus but it would be probably OP and a tracking one would be more reasonable. Also all marauders need a bit more speed instead of making them all bricks and a solid buff in the utility department, because this is the main thing what separates them from faction and pirate BS today(also it can be fairly useful and is a valid reason to chose a marauder over a pirate BS).

If you think eve needs a 900M super slow active tanking BS that nobody will use for anything else but camping station undock points in Empire or busting poorly organized low sec gate camps, then make a T2 version of the tier 3 BS, fix marauders properly or at least leave them alone.

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?13247-Marauders

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Matari Akiga
Doomheim
#685 - 2013-08-30 14:07:13 UTC
Well this looks like it is going to be good... Wait... WHAT!

I have only flown the Kronos so that's all I can speak about but

No web bonus on the Kronos???

The web bonus made it most worth using because it allowed it to best apply it's DPS with blasters.

The Kronos using blasters will now be worse in PVE as it cannot use its DPS quickly like before, unwelcome in incursions for the same reasons as PVE and there are much better options for a sniper fit or a brawler for PVP.

The Vindi has just become a world better than the Kronos.

Please rethink this as it is a massive nerf to the Kronos.

CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.

Improvise, adapt and overcome!
RuriHoshino
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#686 - 2013-08-30 14:13:40 UTC
So a PvE ship gets a moderately entertaining party piece for running PvE content, that still doesn't make it convincingly superior to already available Pirate alternatives because "how 2 run missions" has been solved for a good long time (and arguably they're worse because drones are the only way to kill smaller npcs). Cool?

For PvP, having a super tank isn't really that useful in a world of cyno-up. Ships that can remain mobile and do their damage, or remain stationary but recieve remote reps, will be more useful in every situation that involves a sliver of risk.

So overall it seems like a lot of wasted effort. I'm not a fan of adding skills to the game just to give bittervets something new to train, and the benefits of mini-siege aren't worth training into Marauders if you don't already have it.
Samthaman123 Funaila
Logrus Squad
#687 - 2013-08-30 14:14:33 UTC
As soon as i saw this i stopped training for a command ship's and started training for the marauders. Cant wait now..
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#688 - 2013-08-30 14:20:17 UTC
You definitely get points for doing something new and imaginative. Because it's so different, I can't really imagine how effective it will be or won't be.

The things I wonder about initially are:

* What's up with the tractor bonus? How about trading that for something else? It's a nice tip of the hat to the old way of thinking of the marauder as a solo, long range deployment boat, but let's face it, that's not really how it's used. There's always a noctis in the background these days. No need for the DPS to have a tractor beam too.

* How effective can a projectile weapon be if you are stationary? It seems like tracking will be a serious issue at some point. I'm not a math guy or a fitting expert, but it sure seems like it would be problematic.

Bokononist

 
Lukas Rox
Aideron Technologies
#689 - 2013-08-30 14:23:18 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
You definitely get points for doing something new and imaginative. Because it's so different, I can't really imagine how effective it will be or won't be.

The things I wonder about initially are:

* What's up with the tractor bonus? How about trading that for something else? It's a nice tip of the hat to the old way of thinking of the marauder as a solo, long range deployment boat, but let's face it, that's not really how it's used. There's always a noctis in the background these days. No need for the DPS to have a tractor beam too.

* How effective can a projectile weapon be if you are stationary? It seems like tracking will be a serious issue at some point. I'm not a math guy or a fitting expert, but it sure seems like it would be problematic.


Thats where stasis web bonus comes in handy in current version of Marauders. Got rails? Frigates orbiting? Just double web them and then instapop with 1 volley.

Proud developer of LMeve: Industry Contribution and Mass Production Tracker: https://github.com/roxlukas/lmeve | Blogging about EVE on http://pozniak.pl/wp/
Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#690 - 2013-08-30 14:25:24 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


. . .

PALADIN

  • Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay

  • Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
    • 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)

    . . .

  • Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
    • 10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)

    . . .

    [ALSO]

    PALADIN

    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25)

    . . .

    VARGUR

    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-25)


    Dear CCP Ytterbium,

    What is the reasoning behind removing the web bonus on the Paladin and Kronos? I'm presuming it's because, whilst in Bastion mode, you would consider the web bonus too strong against smaller targets?

    Secondly, what is your reasoning for giving the Vargur a larger drone bay than the Paladin? I don't see any compelling evidence why it should be this way. It should either be even or the Paladin should have the larger drone bay -- for the following reasons:

    1) The Vargur has better innate tracking through its bonuses.

    2) The Vargur has better tracking through the innate values of autocannons.

    3) The Vargur is faster.

    4) Amarr are generally 2nd in drones armament (whilst I admit it is the weakest point, it's still one CCP has considered and used as reasoning in the past to justify drone bay allocation).

    The points listed above (especially the first 3) lead to one conclusion, to wit: That the Vargur has the greater ability to deal with smaller targets on the field than the Paladin. Why does this matter? Because drones on Battleships are, many times, the one weapon system that saves them from frigates and other targets that get under their tracking.

    This is the primary reason why the Talos has a 25 drone bay and the other ABCs do not: it has the shortest range - by far - of all the ABCs and thus the full flight of ECM drones or Warrior IIs give it the extra protection it needs. With the Paladin and Vargur, this range disparity is dissimilar and nearly non-existent. Whilst the Paladin has an optimal bonus, the Vargur has a falloff bonus (and we all know how much falloff Barrage has). Further, with the Bastion module, both boats receive a substantial bonus to optimal and falloff.

    And so, my point still stands that the Paladin is more susceptible to smaller targets and therefore should have a larger (or at least equal) drone bay as compared to the Vargur.

    Thus, I see no compelling reason why the Paladin should not have the 50mb drone bay and the Vargur a 25mb drone bay -- or at the least they should be equal.

    Thanks for read this, cheers.
    Menian Galvon
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #691 - 2013-08-30 14:26:26 UTC
    SkupojHren wrote:
    what?i dont even know where to start

    Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
    Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%

    why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.

    also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5


    Maybe because then they would have the equivalent of 10 guns. Right now they have the equivalent of 8 just like tier 3 BS. The whole point of that was so they could do Tier 3 damage but also have tractor beams and salvagers.

    ---{==================================== }----                             DCS: A-10C Warthog Pilot
    Menian Galvon
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #692 - 2013-08-30 14:27:27 UTC
    Volitaire wrote:
    I'm getting rather tired of every ship 'upgrade' having a new, or multiple, associated skills go along with it.

    Im not. I don't have anything to train anymore :\ Everything I am training right now I will never use.

    ---{==================================== }----                             DCS: A-10C Warthog Pilot
    Jenn aSide
    Soul Machines
    The Initiative.
    #693 - 2013-08-30 14:28:45 UTC
    Welcome to the EVE online community, the only online community that welcomes news of new and exciting content with screams of "you're doing it wrong"!
    Gal'o Sengen
    Doomheim
    #694 - 2013-08-30 14:29:39 UTC
    Would like to request clarification from CCP on a few things

    • The OP mentions transformations, which potentially means they're getting unique models, right?Big smile
    • Can they be bumped in Bastion mode?
    • Does their immunity to EWAR cover Energy Neutralisers as well as ECM/Damps/TD?
    • You are aware that releasing these before OGB's are brought on grid means triple ASB, Siege boosted Vargurs sitting on every single Low/High gate ever, right?Lol
    M1k3y Koontz
    Speaker for the Dead
    Stay Feral
    #695 - 2013-08-30 14:30:44 UTC
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    So, just for fun, I have knocked up a little cyno bait vargur fit in pyfa - this uses existing stats:
    [Vargur, bait]

    Damage Control II
    Expanded Cargohold II x 4

    X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 x 3
    EM Ward Field II

    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II x 2

    Cynosural Field Generator I

    Large Cargohold Optimization II
    Large Processor Overclocking Unit I

    Stats:
    BEFORE OVERHEATING AND IMPLANTS
    Constant tank (1.5 ASBs) 1689
    cargohold capacity: 3650
    Number of Navy 400 charges: 228
    plus in the boosters 21
    Total Navy 400 charges 249

    Boost per charge (HP) 1482
    average resists 76.075 0.76075
    EHP per charge 6194.357367
    Total EHP from charges 1542394.984
    Base EHP 64100
    TOTAL EFFECTIVE HP 1606494.984

    So this is a 1.6M hitpoint cyno bait ship, before considering bastion mode.

    If you switch on bastion mode, the constant tank becomes 3.3k and total effective hitpoints come to around 4.4 million.
    More than a carrier.

    Note that this is just a T2 fit. No links, no implants. With crystal and blue pill we're looking at closer to 8 million effective hitpoints. Add some faction hardeners and it's more like 10 million.

    I'll say that again. 10 million effective hitpoints.

    I was under the impression we wanted to get rid of this kind of thing from the game?

    Please take this nonsense back to the drawing board.


    Your epic cyno bait has no way of holding its target, so your arguement is invalid... also, alpha.

    How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
    Menian Galvon
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #696 - 2013-08-30 14:30:50 UTC
    Capqu wrote:
    hey how come the siege module only gives missiles one bonus?

    guns get application bonus + range
    missiles get range

    doesnt really make sense to me

    also the gun range bonus is much better for some weapon systems than others (falloff bonus for lasers Roll)


    Range on turrets doesn't improve them like range for missiles. Missiles do max damage at all ranges. Guns do not. Missiles do not have tracking problems, guns do. Stop bitching. You want an explosion velocity bonus? So they can **** up small **** too? Then you might as well give the Golem a big ass "I Win" button.

    ---{==================================== }----                             DCS: A-10C Warthog Pilot
    Daniel Plain
    Doomheim
    #697 - 2013-08-30 14:34:50 UTC
    RuriHoshino wrote:
    So a PvE ship gets a moderately entertaining party piece for running PvE content, that still doesn't make it convincingly superior to already available Pirate alternatives.

    you have never run a mission before, have you? even the EWAR immunity alone makes all four marauders instantly better than their faction/pirate counterparts. and i'm not even talking tank and projection bonuses yet.

    I should buy an Ishtar.
    Maximus Aerelius
    PROPHET OF ENIGMA
    #698 - 2013-08-30 14:35:46 UTC
    GAR0 wrote:
    SkupojHren wrote:
    what?i dont even know where to start

    Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
    Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%

    why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.

    also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5



    ArrowThese are my questions tooQuestion


    Because 5 x 100% + 100% Damage = Effectively 10 Turrets\Launchers which is OP!. The +1 High Slot is for the Bastion Module. RTFS.

    [b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
    mr stephenson
    Dodgy at Best
    #699 - 2013-08-30 14:37:48 UTC
    these changes will put the price of a vindicator into obscene numbers. am i right in thinking that if this goes as stated then the vindi will be the only bs sized ship with web bonuses. why do the web bonuses need to be removed ? could the y be changed to a weaker bonus to web range to go with the better damage projection. what if all 3 turret based ships got a web bonus and the golem gets the tp bonus. or you could make tps actually work properly with turrets :) and give the tp bonusto all ships
    but i do like the direction your taking the class. sideways from bs rather than just a slighly better version of them. brave move
    Draenor Ryuujin
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #700 - 2013-08-30 14:38:56 UTC
    Seem to be interesting changes, would be nice to see 1 further module available for marauders to make PoS bashing in area's where dreads cannot be dropped not be the horrid grind that it is. Something like:


    Demolition Module

    Can only be fit on marauders
    Can only be activated in Bastion mode


    Turret/Missile damage increased 100%
    Tracking reduced 90%
    Lock Time Increased 500%
    Max locked Targets: 1