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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#641 - 2013-08-30 12:12:26 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I love the Concept but i dont get it why CCP isnt give Marauders T2 Resistence but reducing bastion resistence?

This would make a whole lot of sense without any major downsides imo. Leave the Bastion mod giving the 100% repair amount, but make the resists somewhat native with the ship. This way the non-bastion fits will be able to get decent RR and function in larger fleets and the Bastion will offer the benefits to smaller fleets which are often more down to a mix of e-war and tactics than just outright damage dealing.
Bakuhz
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#642 - 2013-08-30 12:14:23 UTC
adopt wrote:
Anyone else think that their Paladin is going to go "vertical"








huehuehuehue


i want one ^^

https://zkillboard.com/character/584042527/
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#643 - 2013-08-30 12:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
YaSiS wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.

Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed.


Who cares about this?
You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays.

Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship.

All part of the plan, I assume.


+1


I'm not sure I follow this Shocked - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.
I've just seen this..... ugh

Sorry Ytterbium, but do you actually know how to pilot a close range ship?.... Roll

I have to wonder if there are any 'blasterthron' vets left, mine's been parked for best part of 5 years doing bugger all.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#644 - 2013-08-30 12:24:53 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I love the Concept but i dont get it why CCP isnt give Marauders T2 Resistence but reducing bastion resistence?

This would make a whole lot of sense without any major downsides imo. Leave the Bastion mod giving the 100% repair amount, but make the resists somewhat native with the ship. This way the non-bastion fits will be able to get decent RR and function in larger fleets and the Bastion will offer the benefits to smaller fleets which are often more down to a mix of e-war and tactics than just outright damage dealing.


Given that you fit your ship accordingly to it's usage, such a shift would (imo) enable it to perform as a Heavy Assault Battleship with lower buffer, less speed - but awesome resilence under RR given a resistancefit without active (and while fitting dual-eccm durrr) or even fitting that bastionmodule, or as whatever exactly it is they will do in a pvp situation using that mod (fortifying next to a gate/wormhole or jumping around sniping things with cruises or artillery I'd guess) when fitted for active tanking.

I highly doubt one could fit up a marauder to the same resilence to sentry/alphafleets a rokh, baddon, mega or maelstrom could achieve, so they surely wouldn't be a plain improvement everywhere. Just shifting those resistances out of bastion VIP a little to enable both styles to justify your buck.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#645 - 2013-08-30 12:26:08 UTC
This has probably already been mentioned here, but in case it wasn't: You will have to make sure that the new Marauders cannot jump through wormholes when in Bastion mode. That would be extremely disruptive to wormhole pvp. (We know that dreads/carriers in siege/triage cannot jump through wormholes, but I believe this is only because they exceed max jump mass when deployed.)

Having a BS that can close holes like a carrier may sound attractive, but what would happen is that a single battleship could rescue a large fleet when things go bad, or trap an opposing fleet. Right now, you can make sure that capitals cannot be warped at 0 to a hole and close it on you by putting bubbles up. Capitals don't have the mobility to cross a bubble and get to the hole in a short time. The Marauder however will be able warp at range, MJD to the hole, deploy and close it in one round trip.

.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#646 - 2013-08-30 12:29:37 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Will the Bastion module be high slot? Or are we going to see a clear bias against shield or armour fleets when it turns out to be a mid or low slot?


They said they're adding an extra High Slot to accommodate so I'd guess, mmm this could be awkward, that it's a High Slot Module:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We also are increasing their high slots to 8 to compensate for the slot allocation of the bastion mode.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Galdamon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#647 - 2013-08-30 12:35:22 UTC
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
I trhink Marauders are fine how they are, execpt the sensor strenght, a bit more dps and maybe a salvager bonus too.
If you want to make these ship class viable in pvp, you first have to lower the price or make them more unreplaceable for any fleet.

What when you add not only one Bastion mode (i dont like the idea with basion anyways).
For example:
Modul 1: (short range) +Tractor range/speed
+ massiv more dps and tracking
+ local tank
+ Web Bonus


Modul 2: (long range) + range/falloff increase
+ more ehp
+ boost long range weapon systems (maybe more ROF or DPS)
+ targeting range and speed

Modul 3: (Fleet version) + ability to be remote repaired/anergy transfer gained
+ massivley more ehp
+ sig lowerd
+ scan resolution and senor strength enourmus buffed

Thats only t2 moduls that can be fitted in a high slot and don't need any new skill, the marauder can choose it's role in PVE or PVP.
What do you think?


+1 i can choose the role
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#648 - 2013-08-30 12:39:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Janeway84
Rowells wrote:
would it be possible to add a script to the bastion that allows you to choose between range/damage application and actual damage?


+1

Also Please not nerf the drone bay. And why so low sensor strenght on them still, i can see you want people to use the bastion mod but i think you shouldnt penalize people flying it in jamheavy enviroments.

Any chance you could have scripts to choose if you want better tank or better dmg/tracking or Ewar immunity instead of a everything in 1?
Would make it more tactical to use then imo.
replace tractor beam bonus with web range bonus and web strenght bonus.

I dont care much if its fuel or no fuel for the mod but i think its a bit overkill to introduce new skill to fit the bastion mod. Ugh

T2 resists would be very nice if you added to those very expesive and long to train for ships.

Otherwise i think the main ideas are great and daring wich will prob make players invent new ways to use the marauders in.

Will the marauder be untargeted by Pos Ecm when in bastion mode? Big smile
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#649 - 2013-08-30 12:39:56 UTC
I think its awesome. .. people ***** for years that cpp does not care about interal reps... and now that they made an awesome solo tanking beast people are bitching its not5 good for rr... ffs

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#650 - 2013-08-30 12:40:02 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those P

Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.


So..why can't the siegs skill (TWR) simply double dip?

Strontium reduction for siege modules, time reduction for bastion modules.

OR better yet:

Strontium reduction AND time reduction for siege (and bastion - see below) modules, while a the same time increasing base cycle time for siege modules to end up with the same time for skill V. If you also reword the strontium reduction to 10% instead of the flat 25, it would end up being the same value, but you could also apply it to the 0 consumtion of bastion (=large siege, s.b.) modules.


Then rename siege modules to CAPITAL siege modules and bastion modules to LARGE siege modules and you end up with a consistent system.


As has been mentioned a couple of times in this (admittedly rather long) thread, Capital Commanders and Pilots do not want a timer reduction for Siege or Triage Mode. It is extremely important for the prosecution of capital warfare that everyone be starting and ending their siege cycles at the same time, otherwise someone with a lower timer may get the "Siege Red!" warning right AFTER their cycle starts up again, meaning they are dead since they can't jump, relocate, ect, and the fleet is not going to go for another cycle just so a few pilots can be saved.



BASE cycle time increase + reduction at skill V = exactly the same cycle time as now.
It wouldn't be the firs skill that needs to be V before you're considered fleet-valid.

Quote:

Also since Bastion bears very little resemblance to a Dreadnaught Siege Module this would be very inconsistent and confusing for new players.


Little resemblance?
- ship cannot move
- ship cannot be repped
- ship gets a substantial boost

Sounds pretty similar to me.,

Quote:

While I can certainly get behind less training time overall I also think that having a separate skill is likely required by CCP's code and helps to differentiate Marauders as not being part of the path to Dreadnaughts.


They will resemble a similar step, one from capital ships (where admittedly there IS no neutral basis), one from batleships.
Mooer
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#651 - 2013-08-30 12:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mooer
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I love the Concept but i dont get it why CCP isnt give Marauders T2 Resistence but reducing bastion resistance?

reduce bastion resistance?
where do you get that? it GAINS 30% more resistance in shield, armor AND hull. and being combined with dcII, thats 72% resistance in hull for when shyt hits the fan.

and a paladin with an AAR will rep 1850+ every 11.25 seconds with marauder 5.
that x2 is over 3700 armor in pimp mode every 11.25 seconds.
this is before adding the damnation or astarte bonus in or the changes in local rep amounts coming soon.
so this will be around 4800 armor every 7.65 seconds on a local rep with a fleet up as it stands now. dont like the AAR? run a deep space repper. its almost as effective and can be perma run.

thats a shyt load of nastiness.
all that + 4 tachyons that can hit at about 200k in beast mode, the ability to jump with mjd every minute to escape being pummeled?

they have to scram you, not 2 point you. they have to scram you, not infinipoint you from a hic. not bubbled, but scram you to jam the mjd.

i have no comment on the pg on the golem yet, i havent run the numbers myself.

but 5k pg on the vargur is something. 1400mm arties, with the vargurs fall off, 2 gyro's, 2 te II's, and beast mode (tracking bonus, fall off AND optimal bonus) makes it a 200k sniper from hell.
and with the paladins range bonus from the apoc, beast mode and tachyons, yer talking about hitting someone with 10 tachyons from 200k for ugly damage. that x5 marauders is a helluva welcoming party.


and think about it..one doesnt have to train anything to continue to fly the marauders. they received a boost to their scan res, so they lock quicker, more grid, more cpu on some and some kewl other bonuses.

the paly kept the cap bonus and gained range. thats almost 120k mega pulse with scorch with a 30% bonus to tracking?

i cant see why peeps are upset. other than just being disgruntled and raving to hear themselves type.
Mooer
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#652 - 2013-08-30 12:55:24 UTC
the bastion mode should NOT have a new skill book. it should run off of the tactical reconfiguration of the dread.
itll be a stepping stone. we can put it on a marauder or put it on a dread.

just like armor rep skill affects small, medium or large reppers, the tac reconfig skill should affect the bastion mode. hell, you could even call it siege mode.
i know we will anyway because peeps are familiar with it.

and it is exactly like siege except one doesnt gain the damage bonus and it doesnt modify your targets. its just a different set of bonuses.

one is immobile, one gains bonuses and aquires penalties. its the same thing only shorter duration.
if u like it, then you might like dreads siege time too. if not, you didnt wast time training it.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#653 - 2013-08-30 13:00:53 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though).

Wait... this requires the safeties to be turned off? Eww. Can that be changed?
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#654 - 2013-08-30 13:02:30 UTC
Deacon Ix wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Deacon Ix wrote:
Desperately needs a Damage bonus when in deployed mode to make them viable in PvP, (and make them more like mini Dreads)


"Let's obsolete pirate battleships."

No?



Maybe / Maybe not

my point being that for a ship that size the local tank bonus isn't enough to offset not being able to receive RR in PvP, so in order to make the deployed mode a viable option in PvP there needs to be an incentive to go into it.

Basically if dreads didn't get a damage bonus siege mode wouldn't be used

and Pirate BS will still have the Damage and mobility and some fairly decent secondary bonuses (Webs and Neuts on those particular ones) and I vary rarely see the Mach, RS and NM in PvP anyway as there are now cheaper ships which are just as good.


Yes, for PvP. You have to also think that it will be used for PvE too.
For example Paladin already does a bit over 1k dps with Tachs + Gleam. That's ~50 dps behind Tach NM with Navy Multi. It already has far better active tank than NM.

While it would be nice to have in PvP it would be massive buff to already good ships in PvE. Only Pirate ship that could compete dps wise against most Marauders would be Vindi.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#655 - 2013-08-30 13:10:08 UTC

Love it. Advanced weapons upgrade 5 and Gal. battleship 5 are next in the que.

Do miss the drones though.
Lathaniel
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#656 - 2013-08-30 13:10:39 UTC
Sigh this makes marauders even less relevant in pvp and is totally not needed for pve since as far as i know they don't need any help there. All marauders need is a sensor strength equal or slightly higher than t1 bs of the same hull and some fitting buffs for some of them and they are relevant in pvp for small to medium sized pvp.

a non moving bs is either a dead bs no matter how much tank it has or just ignored
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#657 - 2013-08-30 13:14:56 UTC
I am usually not the one to ask this, but we could use these on the test server ASAP there seems to be a lot of issues that need to be worked out.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#658 - 2013-08-30 13:15:47 UTC
omg omg omg

now I'm REALLY glad that new Apoc model made me train for Mauraders


give it to me

EVE Music
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#659 - 2013-08-30 13:18:57 UTC
So, just for fun, I have knocked up a little cyno bait vargur fit in pyfa - this uses existing stats:
[Vargur, bait]

Damage Control II
Expanded Cargohold II x 4

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 x 3
EM Ward Field II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II x 2

Cynosural Field Generator I

Large Cargohold Optimization II
Large Processor Overclocking Unit I

Stats:
BEFORE OVERHEATING AND IMPLANTS
Constant tank (1.5 ASBs) 1689
cargohold capacity: 3650
Number of Navy 400 charges: 228
plus in the boosters 21
Total Navy 400 charges 249

Boost per charge (HP) 1482
average resists 76.075 0.76075
EHP per charge 6194.357367
Total EHP from charges 1542394.984
Base EHP 64100
TOTAL EFFECTIVE HP 1606494.984

So this is a 1.6M hitpoint cyno bait ship, before considering bastion mode.

If you switch on bastion mode, the constant tank becomes 3.3k and total effective hitpoints come to around 4.4 million.
More than a carrier.

Note that this is just a T2 fit. No links, no implants. With crystal and blue pill we're looking at closer to 8 million effective hitpoints. Add some faction hardeners and it's more like 10 million.

I'll say that again. 10 million effective hitpoints.

I was under the impression we wanted to get rid of this kind of thing from the game?

Please take this nonsense back to the drawing board.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Alsyth
#660 - 2013-08-30 13:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
Pretty bad imo.


In low/null-sec: true dreads will eat them for breakfast. Don't even need tracking mods or 90% webs to alpha them.

In hi-sec: station huggers will be delighted. Good enough self rep, immune to ewar... This is an horrible thing.

Your hate for Caldari and missiles really is annoying. Torpedoes have yet to be fixed, and Cruise will not benefit from a range bonus.