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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#621 - 2013-08-30 11:32:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Why not boosting the role bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams so that it matches the targeting range of those ships (around 100km) ?
Because now that the PvE Marauder is expected to stay at 0m/s while fighting, and that his max velocity has been reduced, it sounds like a reasonable change...

Also :
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Oh I like this a lot.

Still, I'd like to see an alternative to Bastion mode (using a different module, that cannot be fitted at the same time as the Bastion module) that allows the ship to serve an anti-POS role for places where dreadnoughts are not an option (C1-3 wormholes and highsec).


THIS => ♥

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Ra Chel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#622 - 2013-08-30 11:33:03 UTC
Me don't like the new changes! Moar dps please!
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#623 - 2013-08-30 11:34:53 UTC
Think a lot of people are underestimating just how insane the tank on these is going to be. It will have it's uses in small fleet PvP. Burst tank on the Vargur in particular is going to be up their with triage archons based on some quick number crunching.

For those saying "but everyone will run away and you can't keep them pointed whilst in Bastion" - have you not got friends to hold tackle for you? It'll be a really interesting game mechanic in non blob warfare. Similar to blap dreads + support fleets in WH, but without the ability to insta pop everything. The only counters to them would be huge blobs, lots of neuts (don't forget the huge cargo bays Marauders have for cap boosters) or bringing Dreads to melt them in good time.

I'm looking forward to seeing these on Sisi, but gut feel at the moment is that they're going to be really powerful for both PvE and PvP in relatively small gang warfare.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#624 - 2013-08-30 11:35:42 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server Shocked



The Kronos is about to get a silly tank boost in 1.1 that puts me over the 2.5k per 8.8 second cycle mark.

This change is going to knock that up to a 5k cycle. On top of that you're saying I can hit 55-60k with a blap setup?


Well, you've certainly killed off the debate for faction BS's being the best mission ships. There's no way Machariels and the like can stand up to these new PvE Overlords.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Deacon Ix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#625 - 2013-08-30 11:36:14 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Deacon Ix wrote:
Desperately needs a Damage bonus when in deployed mode to make them viable in PvP, (and make them more like mini Dreads)


"Let's obsolete pirate battleships."

No?



Maybe / Maybe not

my point being that for a ship that size the local tank bonus isn't enough to offset not being able to receive RR in PvP, so in order to make the deployed mode a viable option in PvP there needs to be an incentive to go into it.

Basically if dreads didn't get a damage bonus siege mode wouldn't be used

and Pirate BS will still have the Damage and mobility and some fairly decent secondary bonuses (Webs and Neuts on those particular ones) and I vary rarely see the Mach, RS and NM in PvP anyway as there are now cheaper ships which are just as good.
Aaron Kyoto
Frozen Silver.
Arkhos Core
#626 - 2013-08-30 11:36:37 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Why not boosting the role bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams so that it matches the targeting range of those ships (around 100km) ?
Because now that the PvE Marauder is expected to stay at 0m/s while fighting, and that his max velocity has been reduced, it sounds like a reasonable change...

Also :
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Oh I like this a lot.

Still, I'd like to see an alternative to Bastion mode (using a different module, that cannot be fitted at the same time as the Bastion module) that allows the ship to serve an anti-POS role for places where dreadnoughts are not an option (C1-3 wormholes and highsec).


THIS => ♥


Or you could MJD closer? :P
Mc Cormeg
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#627 - 2013-08-30 11:40:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mc Cormeg
Mr Floydy wrote:


For those saying "but everyone will run away and you can't keep them pointed whilst in Bastion" - have you not got friends to hold tackle for you?


If u got friends with tacklegear your enemy would first get rid of the tackling stuff und will then say "have an nice day". At the same time ur uber tank wil rendered useless because why on earth should i shoot your siege marauder if im tackled by a paper thin frig or cruiser?

So yea. The argument is there an valid but only if you deal with complete morons. Or in the other case, when you allready have more manpower. But then ur marauder is only more blob to the blob.
Silver Getsuga
Liber Primus
#628 - 2013-08-30 11:42:06 UTC
Danica Fox wrote:
missile bonus should be explosion radius or exp velocity cruises are already @ over any other range and torps ... are obsolute after last missile "rebalance". the defender thing is a point my ewar immunity should cover it..

and again vargur to the guy that stated vargur can do damage to 90km with autocannons look @ a damage graph learn what falloff is and then understand and then only then post again about how imba falloff boni might be


Yeah, right http://i.imgur.com/3nYyizN.png
sXyphos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#629 - 2013-08-30 11:44:49 UTC
Meh, i suppose this makes them interesting but i'm not gonna bother to train for them just for being "interesting" Roll
But who knows, if they transform into a huge ass GUN as the hull maybe some people will get them Big smile(Kronos? )
Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#630 - 2013-08-30 11:45:06 UTC
I trhink Marauders are fine how they are, execpt the sensor strenght, a bit more dps and maybe a salvager bonus too.
If you want to make these ship class viable in pvp, you first have to lower the price or make them more unreplaceable for any fleet.

What when you add not only one Bastion mode (i dont like the idea with basion anyways).
For example:
Modul 1: (short range) +Tractor range/speed
+ massiv more dps and tracking
+ local tank
+ Web Bonus


Modul 2: (long range) + range/falloff increase
+ more ehp
+ boost long range weapon systems (maybe more ROF or DPS)
+ targeting range and speed

Modul 3: (Fleet version) + ability to be remote repaired/anergy transfer gained
+ massivley more ehp
+ sig lowerd
+ scan resolution and senor strength enourmus buffed

Thats only t2 moduls that can be fitted in a high slot and don't need any new skill, the marauder can choose it's role in PVE or PVP.
What do you think?
Ra Chel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#631 - 2013-08-30 11:45:56 UTC
anyone good at math can say the range for fury torps on a golem with the new changes?

Thanks.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#632 - 2013-08-30 11:51:25 UTC
I gotta say... I was planning on being extremely over critical on you guys when this announcement hit...

However your creativity and ingenuity have suprised me!

From first glance these changes sound pretty cool, could be a monster in missions as well as create a niche fleet or 2 for PvP.

+1 guys nice work.

Keep thinking outside the box!

Not today spaghetti.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#633 - 2013-08-30 11:52:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Golem
- fitted with torps won't profit much from 25% range increase because the ship itself will be stationary
- it NEEDS more CPU to be fitted properly, do the math
- salvager and tractor beam bonusses (and slots btw) are things from the past - change it
- it doesn't need more tank, what it needs is dps or sig radius/exp velocity
In short, a good way how to ruin more PvE ships - ty Evil
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#634 - 2013-08-30 11:52:55 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
What about converting tactical logistics reconfiguration to a percentage reduction in fuel use, adding a fuel bay to marauders, using heavy water as originally considered?

It would be nice to have a better range bonus for tractors, along with tractor speed and salvager cycle time or salvage chance when the bastion is active. A marauder could have the same range as a Noctis without being too efficient since the Noctis has more tractors, more salvagers, and is more likely to have salvage tackle fitted. If the marauder can't salvage the wrecks created at maximum range while en-bastion-ed, that kinda reduces the attractiveness of this ship for PvE. Even a 200% bonus to range will still make salvaging in a marauder more attractive :)


And those that don't have Tactical Reconfiguration trained will have to train that. At least this levels the playing field for this "New" adaptation of the Marauder Class coming in a bit. I think it's a good thing not to increase complexity on a ship that doesn't require it by it's very definition:

"Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments,"

You start adding fuel and it shortens the "prolonged deployment".

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Cydonia Davaham
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#635 - 2013-08-30 11:58:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cydonia Davaham
Zero speed and no RR makes them death in almost any kind of engagements, especially in those engagements where the bs-sized hulls are used. They should be allowed to move unable to use mjd/mwd/ab and warp, you already slowed them down so those 90-100 m/s shouldn't be a problem but let them survive at least a volley from a dread.
Salvager and tractor beam bonuses are useless in a stationary ship that should snipe.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#636 - 2013-08-30 11:58:35 UTC
Mc Cormeg wrote:

If u got friends with tacklegear your enemy would first get rid of the tackling stuff und will then say "have an nice day". At the same time ur uber tank wil rendered useless because why on earth should i shoot your siege marauder if im tackled by a paper thin frig or cruiser?

So yea. The argument is there an valid but only if you deal with complete morons. Or in the other case, when you allready have more manpower. But then ur marauder is only more blob to the blob.


Correct, the enemy would be trying to get rid of your tackle - as you've forced their hand in making it the only valid target. Whilst in general it might be a case that you'd ignore the paper thin tackle ship and get rid of some incoming dps or logi should you aim to remain in the fight and win.

Lets say you're in a 10v10 fight, one or 2 of these landing on grid from one side are going to bring in Ewar and effectively dps immune projected damage that can be applied on the enemies. They deal decent damage, you can't stop them doing that damage, you can't kill them quickly - they force your hand to either retreat, or completely rethink the target calling.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#637 - 2013-08-30 12:00:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
I'm sad to see the web bonus go on the Kronos, I think this is a mistake.

I hate the fact the web strength bonus has been morphed into a 'Serpentis' bonus when it is a key requirement of a *good* blaster platform, and has been from the start of the game. Also that, despite what ‘youngsters’ here might say, it has absolutely nothing to do with 'Minmatar technology' (The Kronos bonus pre-dates the Vindicator one by a couple of years).

Though, overall, very interesting times ahead.

Edit: I have to say, I don't believe you guys ever really appreciated the damage you did to blaster bloats removing 90% webs in general back in 2008 - to match the 'effective tracking' change, you would have had to boost base tracking by 400%, which obviously didn't happen.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#638 - 2013-08-30 12:06:55 UTC
I love the Concept but i dont get it why CCP isnt give Marauders T2 Resistence but reducing bastion resistence?

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GreenSeed
#639 - 2013-08-30 12:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: GreenSeed
i see a trend here... does this mean the vindi will lose the -90% webs when the rebalance hits pirate ships?

please say it will... the current meta for incursions is complete ****. people just blast trough the sites without even considering alternatives to the fleets... all because of the damn -90% webs allowing **** tracking to work.

there was a moment around 6 months after incursions were introduced, where incursion fleets were very interesting, with huginns on grid, lokis, etc etc. now days its so bland and boring that you will see Scimitars with FIVE links... FIVE. that's how easy incursions are...

losing the -90% webs on all ships would definitely make marauders viable for incursions.... but if vindis remain what they are... incursion HQ fleets will continue to be 20 vindis, 10 nightmares/machs and the rest logis.

boring.

either get rid of the -90% webs, or give the sansha a resistance to webs.
Mc Cormeg
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#640 - 2013-08-30 12:09:19 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Mc Cormeg wrote:

If u got friends with tacklegear your enemy would first get rid of the tackling stuff und will then say "have an nice day". At the same time ur uber tank wil rendered useless because why on earth should i shoot your siege marauder if im tackled by a paper thin frig or cruiser?

So yea. The argument is there an valid but only if you deal with complete morons. Or in the other case, when you allready have more manpower. But then ur marauder is only more blob to the blob.


Correct, the enemy would be trying to get rid of your tackle - as you've forced their hand in making it the only valid target. Whilst in general it might be a case that you'd ignore the paper thin tackle ship and get rid of some incoming dps or logi should you aim to remain in the fight and win.

Lets say you're in a 10v10 fight, one or 2 of these landing on grid from one side are going to bring in Ewar and effectively dps immune projected damage that can be applied on the enemies. They deal decent damage, you can't stop them doing that damage, you can't kill them quickly - they force your hand to either retreat, or completely rethink the target calling.

Yea thats the truth. But i think the discussion startet at the point where ur solo Marauder stands against a bunch of enemies. And in this situation the best thing they can do is to gettin out of your scrams, what shouldn be to difficult because of your siege mode, and then gettin out the hell here.

So yea. Ur Friends can fix this but still then everyone with common sense would prime your tackling ships and would run away.

Or else they have enough manpower to **** your siege tank. But thats a completely other situation and in that case u will be dead anyway.