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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Emmerik
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#581 - 2013-08-30 10:05:42 UTC
We don't care about stats that change or modules that a being added.
The only thing we want is screenshots of the Bastionmode!!!


Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#582 - 2013-08-30 10:06:10 UTC
Question: When activated, does Bastion continue to cycle until deactivated? ie: Is there any set time limit, cooldown (etc.) for how long Bastion can run? (since it's not capacitor or fuel dependent)

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#583 - 2013-08-30 10:08:26 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those P

Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.


So..why can't the siegs skill (TWR) simply double dip?

Strontium reduction for siege modules, time reduction for bastion modules.

OR better yet:

Strontium reduction AND time reduction for siege (and bastion - see below) modules, while a the same time increasing base cycle time for siege modules to end up with the same time for skill V. If you also reword the strontium reduction to 10% instead of the flat 25, it would end up being the same value, but you could also apply it to the 0 consumtion of bastion (=large siege, s.b.) modules.


Then rename siege modules to CAPITAL siege modules and bastion modules to LARGE siege modules and you end up with a consistent system.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#584 - 2013-08-30 10:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobias Hareka
Ersahi Kir wrote:
The capacitor amount number is way off. The current base capacitor is 7031, so one of the two numbers is off.

/my guess is 8000 capacitor is correct, 9406 seems like an extremely strange and not round number


Base capacitor for Paladin: 5625
With Energy Management 5: 7031,25
With Energy Management 5 & Amarr BS 5: 8789,06 (heh, just because you need that Amarr BS 5 just to sit in one and you shouldn't fly battleships without energy management 5)

5625 + 2375 = 8000
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#585 - 2013-08-30 10:13:25 UTC
8 as training time multiplier for the bastion skill is too high. That is the same as for dreads (tactical weapon reconfiguration)... Should be 4-5 at most. I even wonder why a new skill is needed? Why can't the module require level 2 TWR? Would make more sense and give extra reason to train it apart from dread siege mode...

I get you want to add skills but giving all new skills high multipliers "just because" is pointless. You just making it a lot harder for new players to get in a marauder since corps will expect you to have this skill before flying a marauder and to qualify for the SRP.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.

Agent Eagle Zero
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#586 - 2013-08-30 10:16:53 UTC
The Bastion module gives equal bonuses to optimal and falloff. Shouldn't it be a double bonus for falloff, just like for example the Tracking Enhancer or Tracking Computer? Otherwise the autocannon Vargur and in lesser degree the blaster Kronos would receive an inferior damage projection bonus to the Paladin.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#587 - 2013-08-30 10:17:29 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:

And speaking of rare missions - any missions with GATES will make the new marauders just unusable. Anything with gates, really.

On this point we are in perfect agreement. The MJD needs to be altered in a way that allows some selection of jump distance, or else a gate 50km away is going to take over 8 minutes to get to.

Dude. WIth MJD cooldown below minute you can perform V-jump(*) while clearing a room, which sets you up for any accel gate within 5 to 200km range.

(*) Jump out, jump in. Takes a bit of practice but gates have big bounding sphere so there's a margin for error.
Cade Windstalker
#588 - 2013-08-30 10:17:30 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those P

Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances.


So..why can't the siegs skill (TWR) simply double dip?

Strontium reduction for siege modules, time reduction for bastion modules.

OR better yet:

Strontium reduction AND time reduction for siege (and bastion - see below) modules, while a the same time increasing base cycle time for siege modules to end up with the same time for skill V. If you also reword the strontium reduction to 10% instead of the flat 25, it would end up being the same value, but you could also apply it to the 0 consumtion of bastion (=large siege, s.b.) modules.


Then rename siege modules to CAPITAL siege modules and bastion modules to LARGE siege modules and you end up with a consistent system.


As has been mentioned a couple of times in this (admittedly rather long) thread, Capital Commanders and Pilots do not want a timer reduction for Siege or Triage Mode. It is extremely important for the prosecution of capital warfare that everyone be starting and ending their siege cycles at the same time, otherwise someone with a lower timer may get the "Siege Red!" warning right AFTER their cycle starts up again, meaning they are dead since they can't jump, relocate, ect, and the fleet is not going to go for another cycle just so a few pilots can be saved.

Also since Bastion bears very little resemblance to a Dreadnaught Siege Module this would be very inconsistent and confusing for new players.

While I can certainly get behind less training time overall I also think that having a separate skill is likely required by CCP's code and helps to differentiate Marauders as not being part of the path to Dreadnaughts.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#589 - 2013-08-30 10:19:03 UTC
Agent Eagle Zero wrote:
The Bastion module gives equal bonuses to optimal and falloff. Shouldn't it be a double bonus for falloff, just like for example the Tracking Enhancer or Tracking Computer? Otherwise the autocannon Vargur and in lesser degree the blaster Kronos would receive an inferior damage projection bonus to the Paladin.


That would be useless for Mega Pulse Paladin?
Random Woman
Very Professional Corporation
#590 - 2013-08-30 10:19:53 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those P


Someone wants to say hallo: click me

I think you manage just fine without a new skill and without strontium. Try at least to put some effort in those excuses. Or be honest: "We put a new 8x Skill in, because we can." , is a more valid reason than that strotium lie.

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#591 - 2013-08-30 10:22:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
I'm not sure I follow this Shocked - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.

When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns.

However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.


i'm going to jump in here and throw out my remarks, as they are mostly about pve:
- you correctly mentioned that EWAR immunity is a big boon to mission running. together with the massive projection and tank buffs we get from hedgehog mode it makes marauders so strong, there is no more point in flying anything else (including pirate battleships).
- if waiting 10 seconds for your TP to finish cycling is annoying, so is waiting 5 seconds. why can't we have a 1s cycle time instead?
- while i am not an expert on incursion running, i am a little worried about siege marauder fleets with super high resistance ASB fits.
- if you go through with this change in the winter expansion, you will have people crying about how useless the pirate battleships are by 2014/03/01 at the latest. power creep has proven to be bad in other games, let's try and avoid it if we can.
- i personally dislike you for having me respec my mission alts into flying fugly marauder hulls, also making them less focused in the process (Blink).

edit: can we get the hulls replaced to abaddon, scorpion, maelstrom and hyperion? that would be awesome!

I should buy an Ishtar.

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#592 - 2013-08-30 10:25:01 UTC
Woh the change sounds... Amazing ? Yeah. The whole siege mode and microjumpdrive thing.

Now I think that the golem should desserve a bit more PW, and a bit more targeting resolution. Waiting for missiles to hit is already a huge waste of time, no need to increase the delay before firing as well...

Also, shouldn't the Vargur have one more med and one less low ? Because it's tank shield AND designed to fit a MJD.

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Agent Eagle Zero
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#593 - 2013-08-30 10:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Agent Eagle Zero
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Agent Eagle Zero wrote:
The Bastion module gives equal bonuses to optimal and falloff. Shouldn't it be a double bonus for falloff, just like for example the Tracking Enhancer or Tracking Computer? Otherwise the autocannon Vargur and in lesser degree the blaster Kronos would receive an inferior damage projection bonus to the Paladin.


That would be useless for Mega Pulse Paladin?


That is the point. Because the Mega Pulse Paladin has such a long optimal range, it would get the full benefit of an optimal range bonus. One kilometer of optimal gives you more range than one kilometer of falloff. An autocannon Vargur would only benefit from a falloff bonus, and thus receive an inferior range bonus. It would be better to make the Bastion module give 25 percent more optimal range and 50 percent more falloff.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#594 - 2013-08-30 10:28:06 UTC
Mirrodin wrote:
I'm really curious about the application (or removal) of Marauders from the Alliance Tournament after this change.


Doubt that marauders will change in role drastically. Their tank will be very limited in case of ASB-setups, potentially insufficient against a whole team regarding neuts/dps - but totally outstanding with their rangebonus and ewar-immunity. At least this year appeared to include a variety of remote modules and energy transfers to overcome the obstacles of module-limitations etc.

Though the active tank bonus is insane, it's nothing you can't overcome even with a 10ish-man format. Might even be less intimidating than *example* ASB-vindicator with scimi-backup.

To me, they look an awful lot like great at pve (cause who *this gist large-SB is my lvl4 tank*) and weird for pvp. The Bastion module appears impossible to judge without a lot of testing, it is reaching into broken aswell as OP on so many levels :3
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#595 - 2013-08-30 10:29:16 UTC
Random Woman wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those P


Someone wants to say hallo: click me

I think you manage just fine without a new skill and without strontium. Try at least to put some effort in those excuses. Or be honest: "We put a new 8x Skill in, because we can." , is a more valid reason than that strotium lie.



Do you know how big strotium unit is? 3 m3. Do you really want your cargohold full of those?

Reason why fuel works for Black Ops, Dreads, Carriers, Supers is that they have special fuel bay.
Kyang Tia
Matari Exodus
#596 - 2013-08-30 10:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyang Tia
I'll have to quote my corp mate, Logan Durandal, who recently left the game, on this matter. In a discussion, a few months ago, about the battleship changes, he said to me:

"Why is CCP making everything so clear-cut? Now, whenever you see a battleship, you already know what it's gonna do. I thought battleships were supposed to versatile, with large drone bays, neuts and slots to fit unexpected modules in. Now they're just dps/tank platforms."

I disagreed, saying only because all the ships were equally powerful now, that didn't mean one could not put unexpected fits on them to surprise the opponent. Meanwhile, it has become obvious that he was right and I was wrong. True, it is possible to fit unexpected things on a battleship, but that was never the main point. The main point was, that in a given situation, it used to be possible to fit a ship such that it would be way better than it was expected to be.

Most people thought that, for example, a Raven was a crappy ship, which made it easy to pull some tricks out of your sleeve and destroy those who underestimated you. Now that all the battleships are considered dangerous, this has become much harder. No matter what battleship you're in, people are gonna bring whatever is necessary to kill you and there's nothing you can do about it. Kil2 once said a very intelligent thing in his podcast: "Most people will have a negative performance-vs-expectation. Whereas, when we fly ships like a Ferox, we can get a way positive performance-vs-expectation." Note, this was before the BC rebalance.

This Marauder change will, at least from a small scale pvp standpoint, make this problem much worse for all marauders. With very specialized and unique bonuses, there is no way you can ever surprise anyone. You can MJD around, then stand there, tank insane amounts of damage and eventually die to overwhelming numbers. And everyone knows that is the only thing you can do. So people will just think about what they need to kill you without any losses and bring that in, or, failing that, not engage you.

Since marauders were never used much in small-scale pvp anyway that is not a huge problem. But it is a good example for the general direction your balancing efforts are going towards. I have been a huge fan of tiericide for the past two years, but maybe you are overdoing it a little. This marauder thing, frankly, sounds terrible to me. In my eyes, gearing a ship so completely towards one very specific playstyle goes against the principles of EVE. You might want to think about where this is going to end.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#597 - 2013-08-30 10:36:20 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Random Woman wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those P


Someone wants to say hallo: click me

I think you manage just fine without a new skill and without strontium. Try at least to put some effort in those excuses. Or be honest: "We put a new 8x Skill in, because we can." , is a more valid reason than that strotium lie.



Do you know how big strotium unit is? 3 m3. Do you really want your cargohold full of those?

Reason why fuel works for Black Ops, Dreads, Carriers, Supers is that they have special fuel bay.


Not sure if beging for strontium bay or not. Lol
Luwc
LOGOS Community
#598 - 2013-08-30 10:37:58 UTC
Might as well just rat in a triage carrier :p

This is going to make null sec ratting with marauders interesting.



http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#599 - 2013-08-30 10:40:10 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

As has been mentioned a couple of times in this (admittedly rather long) thread, Capital Commanders and Pilots do not want a timer reduction for Siege or Triage Mode. It is extremely important for the prosecution of capital warfare that everyone be starting and ending their siege cycles at the same time, otherwise someone with a lower timer may get the "Siege Red!" warning right AFTER their cycle starts up again, meaning they are dead since they can't jump, relocate, ect, and the fleet is not going to go for another cycle just so a few pilots can be saved.


Capital Commanders and Pilots do not want a timer reduction for Siege or Triage Mode that is completely new to me. Afaik people are happy the shorter the cycle is.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#600 - 2013-08-30 10:46:15 UTC
Also for the Golem : 7000 that's -300 from now, not +300

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