These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lore Varan
Caltech Shipyards
#561 - 2013-08-30 09:13:25 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Check the OP and the Dev responses first next time. Tracking was put on there by mistake and has been removed from the OP. There's a comment in this thread from CCP Rise on the issue.


Real men post first and ask questions later Oops
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#562 - 2013-08-30 09:18:44 UTC
Cheng Chai wrote:
The amount a vargur can tank atm is already crazy. Now give it 30% resist across the board and double the shield repair amount....

That thing will be absolutly crazy. Looking forward to doing c6 sites solo in a ASB Vargur. (ASBs will also be buffed with odyssey 1.1 fyi)

Have fun trying to active tank without cap Sleeper neuts hurt Roll

Blue-Fire Best Fire
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#563 - 2013-08-30 09:23:03 UTC
Hey, got a funny idea.

100% Heat Dissipation when in Bastion mode. How about that ? That's a refreshing bonus that has never seen before. You could reduce some tanking bonuses if you think it would make it "too much".
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#564 - 2013-08-30 09:23:12 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
Cheng Chai wrote:
The amount a vargur can tank atm is already crazy. Now give it 30% resist across the board and double the shield repair amount....

That thing will be absolutly crazy. Looking forward to doing c6 sites solo in a ASB Vargur. (ASBs will also be buffed with odyssey 1.1 fyi)

Have fun trying to active tank without cap Sleeper neuts hurt Roll


Notice the 'ASB' there?
Jam Kirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#565 - 2013-08-30 09:23:12 UTC
Moroccan Tourist wrote:
Who give a **** about carebears and their L4s , although incursion might become popular again .

And I'm theocrafting a shield Paladin Big smile

I'm sure carebears careShocked
Infiltrator2112
Untitled Goose Corporation
#566 - 2013-08-30 09:26:14 UTC
QT McWhiskers wrote:
Also the skill should just be tactical weapon reconfiguration. (That way dread pilots will have a reason to level their siege skill to 5.)


Because T2-Siege is definately not a reason.

U wot mate?
Vendrin
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#567 - 2013-08-30 09:33:27 UTC
Seems like a one trick pony. I like the concept, but tankiness doesn't do much for a ship with 0 mobility, as it will just be instablapped by dreads than.


You want to make marauders interesting, give them an anti capital role when they go bastion.
Klingon Admiral
Carcinisation
#568 - 2013-08-30 09:40:01 UTC
RIP Paladin, one more nail in PvE-Armortanking's coffin
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#569 - 2013-08-30 09:42:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Cade Windstalker wrote:
This still leaves Marauders in a crap spot being basically everything the new T2 ships are not supposed to be. They have a solution here as things stand and it seems to be fairly popular so why shove them back to the drawing board just because you don't like that a ship-class has "baggage".

It's not like this is their first prototype iteration, this is what they came up with after crossing off lots of high-concept and probably even fairly fleshed out ideas. It's then been refined to the point that they were ready to show it to us as a first-pass, and your argument is... that you don't like the ship model? Take it up with the art department.


The problem is that they're trying to shove marauders into a niche that doesn't exist so they can stand by their "tech 2 are specialized and worse than pirate ships" picture.

I wish they had never made that picture because it has caused more harm than good. "Specialization" makes sense when you're talking about EWAR, interdiction, and cloaky ships, but what is the difference between a "specialized" brawler/kiter ship and a more generic brawler kiter ship? Did CCP somehow forget that blood raiders ships are highly specialized in cap warfare when making the more general comment?

And while I'm ranting about that picture what about the entire tech 3 confusion. Tech 3 ships are highly specialized to train for, they take more effort to collect materials for, they require specific and highly specialized industry skills to research and build, and on top of that they're expensive to construct and they're the only ship type that you lose skill points for getting blown up in and yet they're going to make them "more general." What does that even mean to be "more general.".

If you've looked at the tiericide re-balance you can see how their little picture hasn't cleared anything up. There are specialized T1/faction/T2 ships, and there are general T1/faction/T2 ships. Every time they've attempted to apply the specialized role to a T2 brawler ships they've failed horribly.

So please, stop referencing that picture. It's a waste of server space when used as a reference of how ships should be balanced.

Edited out some profanity. ISD Ezwal
Danica Fox
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#570 - 2013-08-30 09:49:04 UTC
U should think about it if u want it a pve or pvp ship and bring the Bonuses in one Line.

For PVE boost the Tractor Range to the Jump Range ak 120km
and give it a salvage or salvage drone Bonus

For PVP Remove Tractor Bonus and give it Optimal and not Falloff (Missiles get a Optimal since their Nature)

Vargurs doing in the actual state around 500 dps once they go over around 30km Range so even with absurd Falloff Bonus i would have to fit Artys to use it with Bastion ...

And Really Blasters with 60km Falloff ??? also no(read under half) Dps at around 30 km even with that bonuses

most extreme examples
CNR - correctly Rigged fittet 1k DPs from point blank to 250km (cruise and above)
Vindicator 1,8k dps to 25km

Marauders (2 skill more ! marauders and the new x8 (read 8 times longer) skill ) not even near these numbers
and dont forget BS to 5

why should i take that long training detour for those Bonuses its not viable

u will Kill a complete Class in PVE( exept golem maybe) (For everyone who understands APPLIED not Paper DPS)

In PVP these might have a use for the AT and maybe in wh but fleet scale its rather uninteresting because

without logistics they die (yeah could u use the other bonuses)


In conlusion change the Bonuses that it is 1 SHIP not 4 Half SHIPS

Make it a PVE Boat (salvage/tractor bonuses) OOOORRR A Mini Dread forget about tractors and give it a damage!! Bonus
so they might actually used at Pos shoots or something..


I knew u wouldnt Fix the Class u destroy it stomp on it and try to make a new one

and again wtf falloff no damage bonus 100km jumpng around (where the lock range come to my mind will it be boostet?)
to do no damage @all until the enemys get back close ?!?!?!


Evanga
DoctorOzz
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#571 - 2013-08-30 09:51:49 UTC
Do black ops now plz! Big smile
To mare
Advanced Technology
#572 - 2013-08-30 09:52:15 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIE™ SKILL(name not final)

please keep that name for the skill
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#573 - 2013-08-30 09:53:04 UTC
Cheng Chai wrote:
Looking forward to doing c6 sites solo in a ASB Vargur. (ASBs will also be buffed with odyssey 1.1 fyi)
Unless something has changed, nothing is being done with ASBs in Ody1.1 - "No change to Small/Medium Deadspace boosters, all sizes of ASBs, Capital boosters, Capital reps". It'll still be able to tank well in Bastion-mode though. Just not as insanely well as you might of hoped.
McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc
#574 - 2013-08-30 09:55:05 UTC
AWW YISS!
Cade Windstalker
#575 - 2013-08-30 09:55:06 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
The problem is that they're trying to shove marauders into a niche that doesn't exist so they can stand by their crappy "tech 2 are specialized and worse than pirate ships" picture.

I wish they had never made that picture because it has caused more harm than good. "Specialization" makes sense when you're talking about EWAR, interdiction, and cloaky ships, but what the hell is the difference between a "specialized" brawler/kiter ship and a more generic brawler kiter ship? Did CCP somehow forget that blood raiders ships are highly specialized in cap warfare when making the more general comment?


The difference is that one is a generic ship that can brawl and kite, where as the specialized ship has bonuses specifically tailored to make it a better brawler or kiter. It may be able to do other things but it will likely be ignoring those bonuses if it does. This is shown very clearly in the Command Ships who can completely ignore their link bonuses if they want to but still definitely have a focused role there.

Ersahi Kir wrote:
And while I'm ranting about that --------------- picture what about the entire tech 3 confusion. Tech 3 ships are highly specialized to train for, they take more effort to collect materials for, they require specific and highly specialized industry skills to research and build, and on top of that they're expensive to construct and they're the only ship type that you lose skill points for getting blown up in and yet they're going to make them "more general." WTF does that even mean to be "more general.".


T3 ships can do a lot of things but not as well as focused T2 ships. That is exactly what it means. It has nothing to do with the training required to fly them effectively in all of those potential rolls or the cost of the ships.

Ersahi Kir wrote:
If you've looked at the tiericide re-balance you can see how their little picture hasn't cleared anything up. There are specialized T1/faction/T2 ships, and there are general T1/faction/T2 ships. Every time they've attempted to apply the specialized role to a T2 brawler ships they've failed horribly.


If you could give specific examples rather than throw out overly general statements that would be great and help me respond to them more effectively. As things stand I don't know what, specifically, you have a problem with.

Ersahi Kir wrote:
So please, stop referencing that ------------ picture. It's a waste of server space when used as a reference of how ships should be balanced.


I am sure you have your own ideas on how ships should be balanced, I'm simply reiterating CCP's stated intentions toward ship-re-balancing. Within game-design theory it makes a lot of sense. If you have multiple redundant options then the player-base will gravitate toward whatever they consider to be the best of those options and the others will be ignored.

Giving T2 ships special bonuses rather than having them compete more directly with T1 and Faction ships solves this problem nicely, preserves game-balance, and ensures that we don't get into a power-creep inducing arms race between T2 and Pirate-Faction ships.
Danica Fox
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#576 - 2013-08-30 09:56:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Danica Fox
and i forgot about null PVE is around ticks more damge more money no one LIKES PVE they do it for pvp

so they will use the efficent one (carries Piratehigh dps or mutibox low maintance solutions like multiple droneboats)

and for missions they are to vast to much flying 30km (no help from mjd) to a gate and something like that spawning @ 100+km

marauders will not shine there (dualprop capinjected targetpainter/tracking computer bs dont tent to have space for tank arent they )



I heard u have a real PVP pro sitting @ the changes where is te guy thats doing pve some time and tells u that u messed up


thats only the pve point the pvp point is in my other post

sandbox is dieing....
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#577 - 2013-08-30 09:57:08 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
but what the hell is the difference between a "specialized" brawler/kiter ship and a more generic brawler kiter ship?


A specialized brawler has skills towards close range abilities, which enhance its close range dps in particular. A good example is Vindicator, whoes web bonus is useless outside brawling range. On the other hand, a generic brawler has skills that enhance close range damage, but can also be used for long range damage. A good example here is Megathron, which is designed as a close range ship, but can be used as a long range one too or a Rokh on the other side, which is specifically a railgun platform, but can be used as a blaster boat too.
Cade Windstalker
#578 - 2013-08-30 09:59:56 UTC
Danica Fox wrote:
and i forgot about null PVE is around ticks more damge more money no one LIKES PVE they do it for pvp


I like PvE, I find it much more relaxing and enjoyable than PvP which tends to be fun, but also stressful and much more mentally taxing. Toward this end I very much like the idea that allows me to pull range and watch as the AI blindly charges into me as I Q [F1] them off the field one at a time.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#579 - 2013-08-30 10:00:46 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
Why not have the Bastion module just use Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration?


+1

Excellent changes, I am really looking forward to how these will perform in fleets.
I do however agree that adding another skill is not necessary if you can tie the use of the Bastion module in to Tactical Weapons Reconfiguration.

o7

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
To mare
Advanced Technology
#580 - 2013-08-30 10:04:38 UTC
tbh if this is the way CCP want to go why not just give the a -x% on fitting req for siege modules :D