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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Tzel Mayon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#281 - 2013-08-29 22:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzel Mayon
CCP:

I am not sure if this is what you are intending or not:

But with these Bastion buffs, I think I would use this /a lot/ in epic arcs.

What would happen is:

1. Dual tank the Maurader, with Shield and Armor tanks. (with the massive Bastion bonuses to each, this is incredible).
2. Warp in, micro jump drive away from the warp in spot, launch drones, go into bastion modes, eat frigates with drones, target paint.
3. Get Aggro, Tank, and don't worry about DPS.
4. Signal my fleet to warp in to DPS down everything.

I think this could make dual tanking viable.

And I like it. :)

I /really/ like the idea of a non-DPS Bastion option.

THIS WOULD BE AWESOME if Mauraders had a bonus to fleet boosting!!! By sacrificing the DPS Mods, they could instead equip fleet assistance modules.

Basically, this would be kind of like bringing an Orca in for command and tank, but not with the Orca. :)

Please consider!
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#282 - 2013-08-29 22:55:55 UTC
Azriel X wrote:
I don't see why the bastion should eliminate remote reps to it. Obviously it would be far too overpowered with them... but also I can see why many people say it will be a total flop without them...And because the bastion module is intended as a micro version of the siege mode dreads use... why not allow the remote reps to still be applied to it, however adding a reduction to the repping amount of said bastioned battleship. Would this not be the best way to hit the sweet spot for this issue?


No, you can easily get some really seriously silly tanks on these things as listed now, allowing RR will make them virtually unkillable unless you alpha them, and the game has enough crap in it now that promotes alpha

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#283 - 2013-08-29 22:57:37 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
YaSiS wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.

Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed.


Who cares about this?
You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays.

Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship.

All part of the plan, I assume.


+1


I'm not sure I follow this Shocked - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.

When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns.

However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#284 - 2013-08-29 22:57:54 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

How do you not get that these things will have a MASSIVE tank that allows them to easily tank a ton of damage until they drop out of siege.

These changes are fairly amazing, I actually really like this


Because they utterly fail to understand what the unpenalized resists of a DCII paired with the unpenalized resists of this thing's siege mode will mean, couple with opening up low and mid slots for more damage/tracking/etc.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#285 - 2013-08-29 22:59:07 UTC
Can I make the crazy stupid suggestion here that marauders get 8 slots in their primary tank allocation instead of an 8th high? Also why still tractor/salvage bonuses?

Wouldn't a golem be better with role bonus: 25% reduced explosion radius, paladin: 25% faster cap recharge (ergo total cap can be dropped again to increase vulnerability to neuts), kronos: 25% web bonus (only half as strong now, doesn't compete with pirate ships), vargur: 25% bonus velocity to AB/MWD modules & 25% increased mass penalty for those same modules

Seriously please please please get rid of the stupid tractor beam bonus.
Demotress
Systems High Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#286 - 2013-08-29 23:00:16 UTC
why not call the skill Tactical Bastion Reconfiguration to reflect the skill you use to siege in a dread?
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#287 - 2013-08-29 23:02:08 UTC
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
I'd really love to see some numbers of what the local rep / EHP of Marauders in Bastion mode might look like, and compared with relevant alternatives (e.g., how many logistics it would take to make it more attractive to stay out of Bastion mode).
Anyone? Numbers? Anyone?


I would guesstimate:
2 logi for single XL-shield booster
3 logi for single XLASB
5.5-6 logi for double XLASB setups
Retmas
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#288 - 2013-08-29 23:02:54 UTC
also, a quick question about that 30% hull resist bonus - i understand there is no stacking penalty, however - i'm assuming it will still stack normally (mulplicitive)? if i understand the theory correctly) if you have 60% resists from a DCII, and you activate this module, will it be mulplicative (you have 72% resists (.4*.3=.12, convert to a %, add to the existing 60%)) or will it be additive (60% + 30% = hulltank forever trolo)?
Silver Getsuga
Liber Primus
#289 - 2013-08-29 23:04:17 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Silver Getsuga wrote:
Oh and 4 huge alpha arty cannons will probably suck for pve. (too much overshoot with low RoF).

It only it was possible to ungroup your guns for volley damage that wasn't massively overkill for small ships...

*wants an eft build to include these changes*
Going to be insane alongside the changes to local rep!

4 ungrouped autocannons overshoot less than 4 ungrouped arty cannons.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#290 - 2013-08-29 23:04:52 UTC
Retmas wrote:
also, a quick question about that 30% hull resist bonus - i understand there is no stacking penalty, however - i'm assuming it will still stack normally (mulplicitive)? if i understand the theory correctly) if you have 60% resists from a DCII, and you activate this module, will it be mulplicative (you have 72% resists (.4*.3=.12, convert to a %, add to the existing 60%)) or will it be additive (60% + 30% = hulltank forever trolo)?


Curious as well. It probably is multiplicative. Even so, it's silly amounts of omni hull resist in that mode.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#291 - 2013-08-29 23:06:36 UTC
I'm just going to get this out of the way, because I know it's going to be asked sometime in the future.

Paladin cap bonus gets rolled into the hull, add tracking bonus. Because just about every other cap bonus has been rolled into the hull for a "real" bonus.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#292 - 2013-08-29 23:06:48 UTC
Azriel X wrote:
I don't see why the bastion should eliminate remote reps to it. Obviously it would be far too overpowered with them... but also I can see why many people say it will be a total flop without them...And because the bastion module is intended as a micro version of the siege mode dreads use... why not allow the remote reps to still be applied to it, however adding a reduction to the repping amount of said bastioned battleship. Would this not be the best way to hit the sweet spot for this issue?

Have you seen the resist bonus? They'd have to nerf the RR into oblivion to get an ounce of balance. Can't see it ever really being worth it.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#293 - 2013-08-29 23:07:18 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Retmas wrote:
also, a quick question about that 30% hull resist bonus - i understand there is no stacking penalty, however - i'm assuming it will still stack normally (mulplicitive)? if i understand the theory correctly) if you have 60% resists from a DCII, and you activate this module, will it be mulplicative (you have 72% resists (.4*.3=.12, convert to a %, add to the existing 60%)) or will it be additive (60% + 30% = hulltank forever trolo)?


Curious as well. It probably is multiplicative. Even so, it's silly amounts of omni hull resist in that mode.


Multiplicative, thus 72%.
YaSiS
The Chosezen Onez
#294 - 2013-08-29 23:09:13 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
YaSiS wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.

Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed.


Who cares about this?
You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays.

Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship.

All part of the plan, I assume.


+1


I'm not sure I follow this Shocked - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.

When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns.

However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.


Well if you say so oke, i hope you guys know what you are doing.

CCP soundwave is dancing for you b1tches ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HxwAEpdS2Y&feature=plcp

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#295 - 2013-08-29 23:09:17 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Talcuris wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    BASTION MODULE

  • Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
  • Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%


Adds non stacking penalized 30% hull resist ... please add increases hull repair amount bonus for the hero hull tankers!



90% hull resist with a DCII isn't too bad.

Actually, a total 42.5% and 45% non-stacking-penalized shield and hull resist with a DCII aren't bad, either. Cuts down on the number of tank mods in your lows/mids if you intend to try and seige this thing up a lot.


You had me thinking about 350k EHP Kronos fits with a dcu and bulkhead until I remembered that resists don't simply add like you suggested.

Hull resists =
60% from DCU2
+ 40 (remaining resists) * 30% (from Bastion) * .87 (if stacking penalized).
= 72% resists (70.5% if stacking Penalized), not 90%.
mine mi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2013-08-29 23:10:38 UTC
May i suggest change 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams to 50% reduction on target breaker penalty,to avoid concentrated dps, may also add 1 more turret to make them more eligible for pvp.
Mooer
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#297 - 2013-08-29 23:11:00 UTC
not only YEAH!!!!!
but HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

alot of the things we were advocating for (better pg/cpu, mjd mobilitiy) and more.

the bastion mode rawx!

warp into a lev 4 or 5, mjd up away from alot of the bad guys and enter (beast) bastion mode. smack everything down. if things get too close, mjd away and open up again.

lev 4 mission runners dream.

plus, imagine these on a gate camp ready to mode out.



they are normal marauders with bad ass power grids until they deploy, then they enter beast mode.

atleast we have a direction now.. i dig em. especially since they can be used as normal without further training and have major fitting improvements.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2013-08-29 23:12:53 UTC
I ran some numbers using a Kronos omni-tanked, using 2 LAR II, RAH, DCU II, ENAM II, and a Explosive Pump II, with the increase from bastion module it was able to tank around 2200 DPS.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#299 - 2013-08-29 23:12:57 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
YaSiS wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll make sure we talk tomorrow about the tracking bonus for turret ships (I had understood that neither turrets or missiles were getting an application bonus). I believe its meant to say 25% optimal and 25% falloff.

Either way it won't be unequal as it is currently listed.


Who cares about this?
You are wrecking both the Kronos and Paladin by removing a key element: the web bonuses, plus gimping all of them in DPS by nerfing the drone bays.

Yah, you have made this into a PvP ship, but once again wrecked another PvE ship.

All part of the plan, I assume.


+1


I'm not sure I follow this Shocked - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.

When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first. In all cases the web strength is highly situational in missions. Maybe using 2 webs? But that's a bit overkill when they can just be dealt faster with drones while you focus on larger ships with guns.

However, the extra resists, damage projection, EW immunity is going to be of tremendous help in missions like "The Blockade" where there are 1346454 NPCs using E-war while in Bastion mode. Even without it, Kronos and Paladin new falloff and optimal range bonuses are going to be useful 100% of the time, instead of extreme close range like a web bonus.


regarding the 90% webs... both in pve and pvp... it's one of the best bonuses in game to be honest... so removing it is a huge nerf.

90% web is exactly enough to lower transversal on frigs for large guns to hit just fine
check out my old video as proff http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Pgb2CdMDZ5w#t=209 , it shows a vindicator plowing through frigs which are within web range (pve mission in 0.0), also any good pilot will know you can align the targets direction and set your speed to match theirs to effectively remove transversal

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Azriel X
#300 - 2013-08-29 23:13:02 UTC
mine mi wrote:
May i suggest change 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams to 50% reduction on target breaker penalty,to avoid concentrated dps, may also add 1 more turret to make them more eligible for pvp.


Adding one more turret effectively adds 2 more turrets... 10 is a bit overboard unless the 100% damage bonus is brought down...