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Log-in traps: Something to address?

Author
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#1 - 2013-08-13 21:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ShadowandLight
Previous to a recent patch, many PVP'ers in the game were annoyed with the ability of people ratting to log-out (usually in tanky ships such as capitals) as long as they could survive the old 60 second timer.

Now when you are "flagged" (PVE/PVP etc) your ship will remain but try to e-warp out during a disconnection... however all your mods will deactivate. PVP will make that flag continual, making logging out to avoid PVP impossible (a good move)

(Intentionally or unintentionally this hurt people with shaky hardware / internet connections or dropped packets between your home and CCP's servers, as once a disconnect occurs your ships modules power off leaving you little chance to reconnect with a ship still intact.)

Recently Bitten Inc. planned a very well executed trap for No Holes Barred in their home system.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1kapzg/no_holes_barred_dropped_in_own_system/

This trap however relied on "logging in" to the system with ships and pilots who were snuck into No Holes Barred system.

Obviously Bitten Inc. did a great job and were able to get a good number of kills and presumably exfiled safely.

However, this begs into question the balance of no long being able to "log out" to prevent PVP but still be able to "log in" to attack someone.

The mechanics of this have never sat well with me frankly.

Now, I love the planning and strategy used to effectively pull off an op like this... all the way up to the point of people logging out their toons in systems to catch someone.

Any ideas that could be implemented to mitigate this? Or is this "Eve Offline" and as a community we are fine with this tactic being used.

Edit:

Some possible options to explore are:

- Prevent offensive PVP (IE you cannot attack someone without them attacking you 1st) unless you undock or change systems. A timer could be used to balance this out, something long enough to discourage login traps that require a fast attack and get away.

This obviously would not be a perfect solution due to cynoing people to your location from another area, but you could also make the timer instead universal. Also perhaps using titan / black ops ship would also be on a timer when logging in to prevent log-in / take cyno being the next iteration of this problem.
Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#2 - 2013-08-13 22:29:32 UTC
I was victim to a log in trap once. Quite frankly, it's a complete exploitation of game mechanics and utterly infuriating. It should be addressed and made impossible.
AstraPardus
Earthside Mixlabs
#3 - 2013-08-13 22:31:04 UTC
Working as intended, I'm certain.
Every time I post is Pardy time! :3
Kallie Rae
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-08-13 22:35:15 UTC
And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?

Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#5 - 2013-08-13 22:45:46 UTC
Kallie Rae wrote:
And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?



You clearly have not jumped into a bubble with 1 cloaky alt (the only one in local) off gate only to have 25 people log in and drop on you. It's really, really dumb.
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#6 - 2013-08-13 22:45:48 UTC
Kallie Rae wrote:
And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?



Yes I do. Logging out in a system to catch someone , so that it appears "safer" to the victim, seems to me bordering on exploitation of the game.
Kallie Rae
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-08-13 23:15:31 UTC
Well of course it sucks when it happens to you, but i don't really see the problem. Would rather just call it a smart ambush tactic. Also even though you only see one in local, that should be enough for your to become extra careful.
Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus.
#8 - 2013-08-13 23:27:29 UTC
You would have to make considerable changes to WH's, otherwise you end up with a system that would favor the defender to the point that it would be nearly impossible for them to lose their space.
Tarlson
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-08-13 23:31:52 UTC
a 15sec timer on offensive actions would do it.

Just force the safety to green for 15sec, that would give anyone being jumped on enough time to react.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#10 - 2013-08-13 23:42:41 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:
Kallie Rae wrote:
And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?



Yes I do. Logging out in a system to catch someone , so that it appears "safer" to the victim, seems to me bordering on exploitation of the game.


That's cool.

Then it just becomes hot-drop-o'clock all the time.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2013-08-13 23:46:38 UTC
i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented.

Why?
if i can't log off to avoid pvp i shouldn't be forced into it (the inverse situation) upon log in.

just my take.
Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus.
#12 - 2013-08-14 00:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolfgang Achari
Rowells wrote:
i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented.

Why?
if i can't log off to avoid pvp i shouldn't be forced into it (the inverse situation) upon log in.

just my take.


Definitely no, if you log off in (hostile) space then you should accept the consequences of doing so. I admit that it's not a very fun game mechanic when you're on the receiving end, but how is it any different from jumping into a gate camp?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2013-08-14 00:17:19 UTC
Wolfgang Achari wrote:
Rowells wrote:
i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented.

Why?
if i can't log off to avoid pvp i shouldn't be forced into it (the inverse situation) upon log in.

just my take.


Definitely no, if you log off in (hostile) space then you should accept the consequences of doing so. I admit that it's not a very fun game mechanic when you're on the receiving end, but how is it any different from jumping into a gate camp?

gate camp you have time while cloaked to size up the situation. log-in trap you have no such oppurtunity.

i'm just saying give the pilot a short breather to see whats happening. if he moves or does anything the invulnerability goes away. Not much in the situation has changed but it's no longer an instant death situation
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-08-14 00:49:22 UTC
Cloaked dictor login traps are even worse, especially if the dictor is an alt or second account. You scout the gate and see a clear gate, and only one other person in local, who is probably in an NPC corp or some random corp not red to you. So you bring your main in, the dictor decloaks, bubbles you, and everyone else logs in. There's not **** you can do about this and no way to scout it in advance.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#15 - 2013-08-14 09:01:02 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:
Kallie Rae wrote:
And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?



Yes I do. Logging out in a system to catch someone , so that it appears "safer" to the victim, seems to me bordering on exploitation of the game.

so you would call ppl emptying a system and camping the exit gate in the next system exploitation too?

prety sure you would call cyno drop exploit then right?

it's funny to see how null sec is laughing when low complain about cyno drop, when they are in theyr cyno jammed system.

but the second you do the same to them, find an innovative game play to kill them, it's an exploit!

u mad? show us on the doll where the bad piwate touched you etc......
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#16 - 2013-08-14 09:11:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
The root of the issue is that a player makes certain decisions based on what they can see, and what intel is available ingame. Would they have jumped through that gate if they knew hostile reinforcements were 20 seconds away?

Would it be better for CCP to address the "reinforcements 20 seconds away" issue or the "player knows" issue?

After all, if CCP addresses the login-trap issue, the scene will evolve so that all gate camps will become hot drop camps dumping a pile of HACS on your solo industrial.
BlakPhoenix
Load Up Blast Everything
DARKNESS.
#17 - 2013-08-14 09:55:12 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
The root of the issue is that a player makes certain decisions based on what they can see, and what intel is available ingame. Would they have jumped through that gate if they knew hostile reinforcements were 20 seconds away?

Would it be better for CCP to address the "reinforcements 20 seconds away" issue or the "player knows" issue?

After all, if CCP addresses the login-trap issue, the scene will evolve so that all gate camps will become hot drop camps dumping a pile of HACS on your solo industrial.


Yes and no. The difference between hot drops and login is that logins are much faster (especially if you're in a light ship). Hot drops must decloak, light the cyno, relay this on comms, have everyone jump, they must decloak and target you and be in range to pin you down. This takes much longer than the login trap does.

While I agree in some regards, I do find this an issue. Maybe a solution would be to increase how long it takes from login to arrive on field? Half ships natural warp speed, or something similar.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#18 - 2013-08-14 14:19:47 UTC
BlakPhoenix wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
The root of the issue is that a player makes certain decisions based on what they can see, and what intel is available ingame. Would they have jumped through that gate if they knew hostile reinforcements were 20 seconds away?

Would it be better for CCP to address the "reinforcements 20 seconds away" issue or the "player knows" issue?

After all, if CCP addresses the login-trap issue, the scene will evolve so that all gate camps will become hot drop camps dumping a pile of HACS on your solo industrial.


Yes and no. The difference between hot drops and login is that logins are much faster (especially if you're in a light ship). Hot drops must decloak, light the cyno, relay this on comms, have everyone jump, they must decloak and target you and be in range to pin you down. This takes much longer than the login trap does.

While I agree in some regards, I do find this an issue. Maybe a solution would be to increase how long it takes from login to arrive on field? Half ships natural warp speed, or something similar.

no, it is way faster to decloack and point a ship than it is to login then warpin, then probably warp again unless you land right on the field, then lock it and point
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#19 - 2013-08-14 16:36:40 UTC

Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?

The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.

Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.

It is local chat that should be addressed!



Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#20 - 2013-08-14 16:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.

It is local chat that should be addressed!


This is absolutely unrelated to local chat. Logged off pilots also don't show up on dscan, and don't show up when you scout that system or the surrounding systems. Furthermore, any new intel tools added to the game (as CCP has said they would do if local were to be significantly changed) also ignore logged off targets. It is literally impossible to get intel on an enemy fleet that is not logged in, no matter what hoops you jump through.


I would support a change to this mechanic if you could do it in a way that wouldn't be intrusive to other gameplay. Unfortunately I'm not sure how you could reasonably do this.
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