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Thermodynamics at lvl5 for PvP worth it?
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noromyxo
Corus Aerospace
#1 - 2013-08-07 20:54:03 UTC
It's both a skill-forum and a ships+modules-forum question, but I like the competence in this forum better...P

In PvP does anyone really feel the difference if you've trained Thermodynamics to lvl5 instead of lvl4? Would you say lvl4 is enough or would you advice me to train it up ASAP?

Do fights, on avarage, take so long that it offlines your modules to fast, or are most fights over before then?

Thx,
noro.
Annunaki soldier
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-08-07 21:20:07 UTC
it depends. what fights ? frigate sized most of the times you dont live enough to burn your modules. Bigger sizes you might gain a few seconds more of heated modules. Will that actually define the fight ? Same ships skills etc yes it would lead to a win but this is still pretty situational. I would prefer first to max drug skills then also take it to 5 at some point .

Because i believe you will probably get more comfused from this , choose according your pvp hull size , space you are located also matters as the gameplay changes as residents have different habbits.

Ride hard, live with passion 
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#3 - 2013-08-07 22:19:43 UTC
Every level of Thermo is a huge step forward. It's not as vital as other core skills to V (electronics, engineering, weapon support, drones V etc.) but it surely isn't far beyond.

Especially going from T1 to T2 frigates with an active tank, you reach the point of being thankful for thermo quite regularily. On active tanked cruisers and up, you surely notice a clear difference from lvl III to lvl V, mainly that given a MAR+ancil MAR, you can overheat your regular repper during the complete first ancil rep cycle and the reload cycle. Try it with lower skills and it burns out somewhere during the reload.

So yes, totally worth it once you're done with the first 10-20mil SP in other core skills.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#4 - 2013-08-07 22:41:19 UTC
i think its worth it. I trained it recently to 5 since it was on my low priority list. So before you do weapon spec 5 or something similar train thermo.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Whitehound
#5 - 2013-08-08 12:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Of course, every level is worth it, because you can overheat longer. Instead, you should ask if there may or may not be some other skill, which you want to train first.

If you like to solo then you should go for it just like with the fifth level of an advanced weapon skill.
If you want to make use of the overheating subsystems for T3s then you also want it at level 5 to make the most of it.
If you are more into gang PvP then you should spend your skill time on getting access to more ships and weapon systems and can leave it at level 4.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Seraph Castillon
In Control
#6 - 2013-08-08 13:27:04 UTC
If you fly frigates, ignore it.
If you fly destroyers or fly cruisers and up solo, put it on your long term plan. There are more important things than this skill, but it's good to have.
If you tend to fleet only, ignore it.
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-08-08 13:31:08 UTC
I trained thermo 5 early on when I was around 5 mill sp. I was going on vacation and it was the longest skill train back then. I've never regretted it and in many ways it benefited me more as a newer player more as my heat management skills weren't as good.

I now prefer to use collision damage rigs instead of bursts. Bursts can give slightly better EFT dps but in practice the increase in ROF eats into your overheat time. So, in a fight between me with collisions and thermo 5, versus a guy with bursts and thermo 4, that can add up to a good 10-15 seconds difference in overheat. At the end of the fight, where it matters the most.

The extra overheat time can make a difference if you are trying to catch a kiter too.

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#8 - 2013-08-08 14:10:04 UTC
Would train to XVI if i could..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Christopher Multsanti
The Northerners
Fraternity.
#9 - 2013-08-08 14:25:13 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Would train to XVI if i could..



Would train to XVIl if i could..

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-08-08 15:24:56 UTC
Not a useless skill, not a terrible important one either.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#11 - 2013-08-08 16:34:32 UTC
Some numbers for overheated modules:

Turrets and Bays 15% rate of fire bonus
Shield Hardners 20% resists bonus
Speed Mods 50% more speed
Shield Boosters 15% duration + 10% more HP repaired
Armor Boosters 15% duration + 10% more HP repaired
Warp Disrupter 20% range bonus

Thermodynamics is 1 skill and it affects ALL these items and more. And the boost it gives is better than any implant or any other singular skill level combined.

Level V lets you do all this for 20% longer than level IV.

Might be the most under-rated skill in the game.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-08-08 16:40:09 UTC
Yes, but check it in reality, for guns you get like 3 to 4 secs more heat, less with some other modules. (talking about the difference between 4 and 5)
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#13 - 2013-08-08 17:15:03 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Yes, but check it in reality, for guns you get like 3 to 4 secs more heat, less with some other modules. (talking about the difference between 4 and 5)



Well in a fight the difference between your prop being 95% burned out or completely burned out is a pretty big deal.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Valatie
Nova Prospect Enterprises
Missile Militia
#14 - 2013-08-08 17:42:50 UTC
A skill that can make your ship....

go 50% faster
Deal about 20% more damage
Active tank about 20% more damage
Neut/Nos better
Point/web further

...and other things I might be forgetting, all in one skill, is too good not to max out so you can be awesome for as long as possible. Getting it to V is the closest thing to an Elite Core Competency: PvP certificate in the game.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#15 - 2013-08-08 17:44:36 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Yes, but check it in reality, for guns you get like 3 to 4 secs more heat, less with some other modules. (talking about the difference between 4 and 5)



Well in a fight the difference between your prop being 95% burned out or completely burned out is a pretty big deal.


Yup. Something people are not taking into account is that heat damage is not all that granular. You aren't going to get the convenience of turning off heat right when the module is 99% damaged. Instead of thinking of it as X seconds more heat, think of it as X amount less likely that you're going to burn out an essential mod in the middle of a fight.
Whitehound
#16 - 2013-08-08 18:29:32 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Some numbers for overheated modules:

Turrets and Bays 15% rate of fire bonus
Shield Hardners 20% resists bonus
Speed Mods 50% more speed
Shield Boosters 15% duration + 10% more HP repaired
Armor Boosters 15% duration + 10% more HP repaired
Warp Disrupter 20% range bonus

Thermodynamics is 1 skill and it affects ALL these items and more. And the boost it gives is better than any implant or any other singular skill level combined.

Level V lets you do all this for 20% longer than level IV.

Might be the most under-rated skill in the game.

How do you get 20%?

The theoretical heat damage from an armor repairer for example is 4.32 HP/cycle at level 4 and 4.05 HP/cycle at level 5. Ignoring the random damage distribution are there only so many hitpoints on the modules before these burnout. While the skill reduces the damage by 5% does the damage difference make a relative time difference of 6.67% between level 4 and 5. Depending on the layout can modules burn out slower or faster, but this happens independently from the amount of damage, which is all that the skill influences.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-08-08 18:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Whitehound wrote:
If you want to make use of the overheating subsystems for T3s then you also want it at level 5 to make the most of it



Was about to thinking train that lvl5 specifically for T3's because those are the ships where you see how important that lvl5 skill can be, but then I started spotting T3 hate threads popping everywhere, following HACs & CSs changes and defenitivelly abandoned the idea of doing it right now.

On T1 or T2 ships the difference is one cycle less one cycle more so imho lvl5 doesn't make much difference unless I have nothing else important to train.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-08-08 20:01:55 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Yes, but check it in reality, for guns you get like 3 to 4 secs more heat, less with some other modules. (talking about the difference between 4 and 5)



Well in a fight the difference between your prop being 95% burned out or completely burned out is a pretty big deal.


Yup. Something people are not taking into account is that heat damage is not all that granular. You aren't going to get the convenience of turning off heat right when the module is 99% damaged. Instead of thinking of it as X seconds more heat, think of it as X amount less likely that you're going to burn out an essential mod in the middle of a fight.


Comes down to the same, the skill to IV is very important, V not so much. You can tell the difference but it really isnt a must have as long as you arent all V with the ships you fly the most in other aspects.
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-08-08 23:54:53 UTC
In a frig fight, going that extra 1 or 2 cycles can make a difference. Can't talk about anything bigger as I only fly frigs. If you have fitted well for heat reduction, are good at heat management and have thermo 5, that can give you an advantage against a guy who doesn't. If you are in a high speed mwd chase going that extra cycle means you can get on top of your mark as he'll have to give up before you do.

Sometimes I'll fit an Atron or Executioner with prop mod, point and a spare slot in between if I really want to push the overheat. You only really need 2 mids on a kite fit. Any more are a bonus and if you don't use them they act as a heat sink.


Alternatively, my advice to every pilot in eve is to only train thermodynamics to 4 Pirate

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#20 - 2013-08-09 00:32:37 UTC  |  Edited by: RavenPaine
Whitehound wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Some numbers for overheated modules:

Turrets and Bays 15% rate of fire bonus
Shield Hardners 20% resists bonus
Speed Mods 50% more speed
Shield Boosters 15% duration + 10% more HP repaired
Armor Boosters 15% duration + 10% more HP repaired
Warp Disrupter 20% range bonus

Thermodynamics is 1 skill and it affects ALL these items and more. And the boost it gives is better than any implant or any other singular skill level combined.

Level V lets you do all this for 20% longer than level IV.

Might be the most under-rated skill in the game.

How do you get 20%?

The theoretical heat damage from an armor repairer for example is 4.32 HP/cycle at level 4 and 4.05 HP/cycle at level 5. Ignoring the random damage distribution are there only so many hitpoints on the modules before these burnout. While the skill reduces the damage by 5% does the damage difference make a relative time difference of 6.67% between level 4 and 5. Depending on the layout can modules burn out slower or faster, but this happens independently from the amount of damage, which is all that the skill influences.



I had ballparked my '20%' based on 5% less damage.
I also didn't take into account that you have to have level 1 trained to overheat anything at all.

I see that you did your math on a large armor rep, and its gonna get 9 cycles no matter what. Then it will burn out. A heat sinc next slot might get you 10 cycles. But basicly I see your point, and in this instance you are correct.
If you use a Medium Armor Rep II, (heat damage is less on mediums) then you will get 7 base cycles, 9 cycles at IV and 10 guaranteed cycles at level V.

Same with Invuln II's. 11 cycles, 14 and 15 respectively
It could be argued that 1 more cycle = 25% to 33% more time?
I dunno, again, it was just a ballpark call.

I didnt do any other calcs other than the 3 items listed here. The trend seems to indicate 1 more cycle, which would yield the afore mentioned bonuses for however many seconds.


Edit here: I did go ahead and do a couple of medium weapons calcs. Heavies and Rails. They take a lot less damage, so the skill level adds 2 to 4 cycles cycles for them. With strategic cruisers V, it's possible to run 1 full load completely overheated.
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