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[Odyssey 1.1] Warfare Links, Mindlinks, Gang bonuses

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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#561 - 2013-08-07 15:51:30 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok update time!



Most of your updates are decent. Could you please take a moment to address why off grid gang links are way more potent than pirate implant sets and drugs? Both of these later items are at real risk of not only being destroyed, but also providing drawbacks to your ship. Meanwhile, links are boosting every ship, with far more potency, from historically, a "safe" place.

P.S. EXCELLENT change with by giving boosters a weapons timer!!!!!


I'm ok with another character being a bigger deal than an implant or a pill.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#562 - 2013-08-07 15:55:15 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok update time!



Most of your updates are decent. Could you please take a moment to address why off grid gang links are way more potent than pirate implant sets and drugs? Both of these later items are at real risk of not only being destroyed, but also providing drawbacks to your ship. Meanwhile, links are boosting every ship, with far more potency, from historically, a "safe" place.

P.S. EXCELLENT change with by giving boosters a weapons timer!!!!!


I'm ok with another character being a bigger deal than an implant or a pill.


They are a bigger deal simply by the fact they give boosts to every ship in fleet... do they really need to be 50% more powerful too?
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#563 - 2013-08-07 15:56:20 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'm ok with another character being a bigger deal than an implant or a pill.

I think you misspelled "another sub paid to CCP."

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Mingja
Perkone
Caldari State
#564 - 2013-08-07 16:01:25 UTC
Any changes for the rorqual yet?

Can't be used inside a PoS-field and having to deploay it for boostings makes the boost-bonus rather.. dumb?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#565 - 2013-08-07 16:17:47 UTC
Mingja wrote:
Any changes for the rorqual yet?

Can't be used inside a PoS-field and having to deploay it for boostings makes the boost-bonus rather.. dumb?


It can be used inside a pos field.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Sentinel Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#566 - 2013-08-07 16:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentinel Smith
For the most part I like the changes, and the update.. Bringing back a reason to actually train the Command Ships Skill is very nice, as without it the only people who would train it would be those that fly Slep's lol.

I want to see a reduction in the nerf to Skirmish, specifically Interdiction Maneuvers.. I've read some of the complains, and I accept them, but it seems the biggest reason for the nerf is how much they bonus things like Recon ships, giving them crazy range.. And I agree, those ranges are nuts, but I don't see why to fix that you need to punish all the other ships..

Give a slight nerf to the ships that have web and scram range bonuses.. combined with a smaller nerf over all to the link.. That, or provide a slight boost to the modules themselves to add an extra km or so in range to makeup for the nerf, AND to help those without boosts be a little better..


Also, I do agree with the complaint that the mindlink is more important than the hull.. I'd rather see the buff to links on the CS be increased a lot, and the mindlink itself reduced.. At least make them even.. There should be no case, NONE, where a T1 BS even with the link should provide better boosts than a T2 CS without.. at best they should be on par..
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#567 - 2013-08-07 16:22:47 UTC
Heat links sound a little underwhelming given that no one really uses the heat subs on T3s; I can't imagine ever dropping any of the current skirmish links for a prop mod heat reduction ganglink unless it did something ridiculous like allow you to overload your MWD for ten minutes straight or similar.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#568 - 2013-08-07 16:25:53 UTC
Fozzie, does the navy version of Mindlinks will have also the static bonus (i.e. the shield HP bonus of siege warefare mindlink, etc...) of one or both warafare types?

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#569 - 2013-08-07 16:27:49 UTC
Sentinel Smith wrote:
For the most part I like the changes, and the update.. Bringing back a reason to actually train the Command Ships Skill is very nice, as without it the only people who would train it would be those that fly Slep's lol.

I want to see a reduction in the nerf to Skirmish, specifically Interdiction Maneuvers.. I've read some of the complains, and I accept them, but it seems the biggest reason for the nerf is how much they bonus things like Recon ships, giving them crazy range.. And I agree, those ranges are nuts, but I don't see why to fix that you need to punish all the other ships..

Give a slight nerf to the ships that have web and scram range bonuses.. combined with a smaller nerf over all to the link.. That, or provide a slight boost to the modules themselves to add an extra km or so in range to makeup for the nerf, AND to help those without boosts be a little better..


Also, I do agree with the complaint that the link is more important than the hull.. I'd rather see the buff to links on the CS be increased a lot, and the mindlink itself reduced.. At least make them even.. There should be no case, NONE, where a T1 BS even with the link should provide better boosts than a T2 CS without.. at best they should be on par..



Yes it does defeat the point of CS if other ships can provide stronger boosts than they can .. after-all 15% isn't that strong when you add it to links ... especially when you consider how long it takes to train CS to lv5 and all you have to do is buy a implant and put it on a T1 bc.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#570 - 2013-08-07 16:29:49 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
Fozzie, does the navy version of Mindlinks will have also the static bonus (i.e. the shield HP bonus of siege warefare mindlink, etc...) of one or both warafare types?


Yes, for both.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#571 - 2013-08-07 16:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Grarr Dexx
Quote:
We're planning to make active gang links provide a 60 second weapons timer to their owner, so that you can't just sit on a station or gate and boost all day long.


I would call this a nerf to gangs that have the balls to actually bring their links on grid with them (usually in the form of a damnation). If a side gets overblobbed, all the bigger side will have to do to force a gang to drop all links in order to de-aggro is point up the link ship, further disadvantaging the losing side.

Is this really what you want to do? It's just going to further promote off grid boosting, because a weapons timer doesn't really affect something hovering in a safespot.

EDIT: Is it not possible to give it the same treatment as remote repair/transfer/shield? Inherit the timers from agressed people, not make new ones.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#572 - 2013-08-07 16:33:10 UTC
Unhappy with off grid boosting? I have a solution!


Nerf all the links people use, then nerf the ships that are used to boost off grid, then nerf the only workable on grid command ship.

Nerf the links, ok, nerf ogb's, go ahead. But the rational behind making one of the only 2 used on grid command ships less tanky is beyond me.


The solution of command ships is NOT to lower them all to the lowest common denominator, which is frankly useless.

A command ship should be commanding, a platform for tank, links, and survivability. Some quasi dps, mediocre tank, mediocre boosts role is a hell of a lot like a Swiss army knife. That is to say, flimsy and unusable, trying to do too many things at one.

You know when the last time I saw an Astarte was? 3 years ago, a corpy used one to beltrat in fountain.

I'll tell you when I see an absolution or an eos. At any time, in any place outside the AT.


Got to say, I love most of your rebalanced. HAC's, t1 everything, indies, all look excellent and well thought out.
This one left me checking to make sure it was not April in August.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#573 - 2013-08-07 16:39:05 UTC
Whee, 60 second weapons timer. I'll take the small victories where i can get them.

Still think you should nerf them more and give them a npc log off timer too but ohh well.

Making compro's rigs is a decent idea, while you are ******* with rigs can you fix the drone rigs? they are awful.



I'm also glad you changed the sensor res thing.. Its way to easy to make instalock ships as it is, don't need to make it any easier.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#574 - 2013-08-07 16:39:33 UTC
Quote:
I want to add at least one more link to each of the combat categories, and am currently leaning towards adding one for each that reduces heat damage from overheating modules in their category.


this is going to be an extremely strong bonus, especially in 1v1+1 situations of smallscale in general

should not be brought into the game without moving bonuses on grid first
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#575 - 2013-08-07 16:40:35 UTC
this 60 second timer...

any chance of doing something similar with cloaks?

like after links cycle off you still have cloak recalibration for 15 sec or something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#576 - 2013-08-07 16:42:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


  • We're switching the bonus provided by the information warfare skill and info mindlink back to lock range. People correctly pointed out that it makes much more sense for a skill and module (sensor integrity link) to provide similar bonuses than it does for two skills in the same category to provide the same bonus.



    • Oh GOOD, so Information warfare is uesless again! Thanks Fozzie, because consistency in idiotic useless bonuses is more important than actually fixing the bonuses. How abouts, you just fix the skill issue instead of making info links the same ridiculous laughing stock that they have been.

    Or, how about both? I guess heaven forbid Information links be I dunno nearly as amazingly useful as any of the other warfare links.

    Straight up HP, or agility, or great, locking range, surely that's handy...oh wait, it isn't, and hasn't been for the last 10 ******* years.
    sten mattson
    Red Sky Morning
    The Amarr Militia.
    #577 - 2013-08-07 16:42:46 UTC
    Great changes! Im just a little concerned about the proppsed weapons timer given to the link ship when boosting.
    His basically means a deagro order will have to be carried out without boosts. Thus lowering the chances of a successful disengament even further.

    This particular change is great for people using ogb but not for those who intend on using the boosts in ther intended purpose.

    IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
    Andrea Griffin
    #578 - 2013-08-07 16:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Griffin
    The one thing I did not see here that I dearly wanted to: Off grid boosting removed.

    Is this not being done right now due to time / code complexity, or is this bad mechanic going to remain forever?

    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    I'm ok with another character being a bigger deal than an implant or a pill.
    Except the person using the pill / implant has to actually be involved in the fight for that pill or implant to matter. On grid, doing something.

    CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
    Maximus Andendare
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #579 - 2013-08-07 16:47:13 UTC
    Andrea Griffin wrote:
    The one thing I did not see here that I dearly wanted to: Off grid boosting removed.

    Is this not being done right now due to time / code complexity, or is this bad mechanic going to remain forever?
    Did you not read any of the OP? I'm guessing--and I'm taking a long shot here--that you didn't bother.

    Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

    >> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

    Deacon Abox
    Black Eagle5
    #580 - 2013-08-07 16:47:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Ok update time!

    Thanks as always to everyone providing constructive feedback. There are several changes we're making to the proposal thanks to issues you brought up. I posted these changes to the CSM yesterday and got positive reception so we're ready to send them to you.

    I'm going to go over the changes to the 1.1 proposal, as well as talk a bit about later changes we want to make, that won't be in 1.1 but can potentially come fairly soon. Anything mentioned there is unconnected to the technical project for removing offgrid boosting, so does not need to be connected to that project's timeline.

    Changes to the plan for 1.1!

  • We're moving the link bonuses on the command ships back to the command ships skill and away from a role bonus. They'll be a 3% per level third bonus for that skill.

  • We're switching the bonus provided by the information warfare skill and info mindlink back to lock range. People correctly pointed out that it makes much more sense for a skill and module (sensor integrity link) to provide similar bonuses than it does for two skills in the same category to provide the same bonus.

  • We're reducing the base strength of the Interdiction maneuvers link to 8% for T2 (6.4% for T1). This gives it a maximum strength of 34.5% as opposed to 38.8% in the earlier proposal and 53% on TQ currently.

  • We're dropping the change that would have given all gang link bonuses to capital local reps until we have the testing bandwidth to deal with some interactions with wormhole effects that the CSM correctly pointed out would become a problem.

  • We're changing the LP store offers for the Navy Mindlinks, so that they require 100k LP, 100m isk, one of each of the T2 mindlinks that they combine. (This adds about 150m to their price total)


    • Near future stuff

  • We want to deal with several problems connected with command processors. They allow people to fit too many links on an alt gang booster, and they imbalance shield ships compared to armor fits. I like the idea of making them a rig, but there's still a lot of details to figure out so this won't be in 1.1.

  • We're planning to fix the issue where Wing Commanders don't get the fleet level bonuses. There's a few gnarly bits of code to get through before we can tie a bow on this, but the way it works now is stupid and in general we want to reduce the number of stupid systems in our game.

  • We're planning to make active gang links provide a 60 second weapons timer to their owner, so that you can't just sit on a station or gate and boost all day long.

  • Expanding the link bonuses to local capital tanks is something we still want to do, because we want the bonuses and effects to as much as possible behave in a logical and consistent manner. Special cases should only be used when absolutely necessary. This is dependant on us figuring out what we want to do with Pulsar and Wolf Rayet wormholes first.

  • I want to add at least one more link to each of the combat categories, and am currently leaning towards adding one for each that reduces heat damage from overheating modules in their category.

    • Obviously the usual disclaimers apply to future stuff, but the timeline for these kinds of things would ideally be either Winter or earlier.

    I'm gonna update the OP, then go post updates into the other threads.

    Ok, decent changes. But how does any of this end the stupidity of off-grid Tech III safespotted and very hard to probe down before cloak or warp? You've made the Command ships easier to tackle on a gate or station, and can't boost from pos. So how is any of this moving the game away from the off-grid problem. Tech IIIs will still be in the drivers seat for boosting, won't they ??? Is this what you want? I'm beginning to think so. It's save the alt account dishonor boosters at CCP time.What?

    CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.