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[Odyssey 1.1] Warfare Links, Mindlinks, Gang bonuses First post First post First post
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Luxembourg Space Union 402
Lephia DeGrande Luxembourg Space Union Likes received: 402	#521 - 2013-08-06 13:50:27 UTC If you lower the amount to much no one will skill 50 days+ for 10%. And to ditch the boosting mechanic as whole would kill the complete Command Ship section at once. This cant be the answer, sry. Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup

The Spod

Center for Advanced Studies

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 169

#522 - 2013-08-06 13:59:36 UTC | Edited by: The Spod

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Anyone have thoughts on simply making Fleet boost levels dependent on Fleet Size?

Likewise, Rapid Deployment II (7% base) would give very different bonuses based on your fleet size:

Using something like Base Boost * Mindlink Bonus * Hull Bonus * (1 + Number in fleet * Modifier) = Fleet Boost Bonus?

Example: Rapid Deployment, Mindlinked, CS:

5 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 5 ) = 10.82% increase in speed
10 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 10 ) = 11.57% increase in speed
15 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 15 ) = 12.33% increase in speed
20 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 20 ) = 13.08% increase in speed
30 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 30 ) = 14.59% increase in speed
50 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 50 ) = 17.61% increase in speed
75 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 75 ) = 21.38% increase in speed
100 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 100 ) = 25.16% increase in speed
150 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 150 ) = 32.7% increase in speed
200 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 200 ) = 40.25% increase in speed
250 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 250 ) = 47.8% increase in speed

This reversed or any similiar artificial number based mechanic would force blobs to split in small groups, just increasing the management tedium, so flipping the numbers is no option.

Just removing off grid boosts is the best goal mentioned. It opens up multiple new mechanics of warfare, like splitting fights to remove enemy boosts. It requires coding but just do it. Possibly AOElinks? Tie it to range from ship like smartbombs, might be easier to code. How about 100km so you really have to pay attention to link position.


The Spod Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation Likes received: 169	#523 - 2013-08-06 14:03:05 UTC \| Edited by: The Spod Short quote version: Make links AOE with 50-150km range (hull bonus, mod meta level...)


Lephia DeGrande Luxembourg Space Union Likes received: 402	#524 - 2013-08-06 14:06:24 UTC Yeah and make ewar affecting Warefare link like, ECM cancle, damp reduce ongrid Range, Target painter increase bonus (yeah risk/award) and neut is simple just shut Down if cap is empty! Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup

Veshta Yoshida

PIE Inc.

Khimi Harar

Likes received: 917

#525 - 2013-08-06 14:07:24 UTC

Roime wrote:

...Isn't that exactly bassackwards? Link efficiency should reduce with fleet member count. Frankly the last thing we need is another mechanic favouring numbers.

One could tie it into the Titan's and give them the ability to boost nearby links 25% (ie. that which was axed from mindlinks) or so. More reward for even bigger risk and it encourages the cowardly catapults to come out of hiding.

Gypsio III

Questionable Ethics.

Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork

Likes received: 1,264

#526 - 2013-08-06 14:09:01 UTC | Edited by: Gypsio III

Lephia DeGrande wrote:

If you lower the amount to much no one will skill 50 days+ for 10%. And to ditch the boosting mechanic as whole would kill the complete Command Ship section at once.

This cant be the answer, sry.

I don't want to see them gone, they do offer something. But right now they are simply far too powerful, such that they are basically mandatory all the way from fleet to small-gang (and even having led to the redefinition of "solo"!), leaving a chasm between the haves and anyone stupid or new enough to be a have-not.

While I support moving them on-grid only, doing so while leaving them at their current strength will create an awkward situation, where link ships are so powerful that it becomes absolutely essential to kill them. A large fleet that loses its links becomes at such a disadvantage that it must respond by killing the opposition's links. This is a bad, binary mechanic, with no gradation in power between links on or off, and it's not much fun for link ships' pilots either ("Oh, primaried again, maybe I should fly a Scorpion next time, that might live longer?").

I know links are very attractive - like very many people, I have one link alt (who I used in the tournament over this char because of, well, links...) and another in training. But they're simply too powerful for the game's own good.

Anyway, people already do train 50 days for 10% bonuses, and indeed ones much smaller and limited to only a single ship class.


Lephia DeGrande Luxembourg Space Union Likes received: 402	#527 - 2013-08-06 14:16:28 UTC Yeah i am completly ob the side that Boosting in the current state is to mighty and easy and thats exactly for what i stand, make fleet boosting a heavy task for everyone but dont take them the advantage when they accomplish all nessecery requirements! Or Even worse punish them... Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup

Harvey James

The Sengoku Legacy

Likes received: 1,267

#528 - 2013-08-06 14:19:47 UTC | Edited by: Harvey James

Harvey James wrote:

All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 8%
T2: 11%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 17.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Electronic Superiority bonuses to ECM and Target Painters:
T1: 8%
T2: 11%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 17.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Electronic Superiority bonuses to Tracking Disruptors and Sensor Damps:
T1: 7%
T2: 10%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 16%
Former max bonus: 21%

Information Warfare: Recon Operation:
T1: 8%
T2: 11%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 17.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Sensor Integrity:
T1: 13%
T2: 16%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 25.6%
Former max bonus: 53%

Skirmish Warfare: Evasive Maneuvers:
T1: 11%
T2: 14%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 22.4%
Former max bonus: 35%

Skirmish Warfare: Interdiction Maneuvers:
T1: 9%
T2: 12%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 19.2%
Former max bonus: 53%

Skirmish Warfare: Rapid Deployment:
T1: 10%
T2: 13%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 20.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

The four Warfare Specialist skill bonus changed from the current 100% bonus per level (after the first level) to 6% bonus per level.
Mindlink bonus reduced from +50% to +16%
Powergrid need of all warfare links modules decreased by 100.

This is more like what i would like to see and think is much more balanced at least until OGB is removed anyway.
And its much easier to understand how you get the end result on the bonus
20% Command Ship ..16% mind-link... 24% from skills

CCP could add a NEW T1 mindlink - 10%
T2 mindlink -16%
NEW Navy mindlink - 13% bonus to the two racial links

CCP could even add navy warfare links which could be placed inbetween the T1 and T2 with lower fittings and cap usage

Would this be more towards peoples preference?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

University of Caille Gallente Federation 3,623
Omnathious Deninard University of Caille Gallente Federation Likes received: 3,623	#529 - 2013-08-06 15:07:58 UTC How about just delete wing command and fleet command from the game. Many people don't like that one ship can effect so many ships, so make it so that a blob has to bring 25 boosting ships if they want to boost 250 members. If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Garviel Tarrant

Beyond Divinity Inc

Shadow Cartel

Likes received: 2,240

#530 - 2013-08-06 15:56:45 UTC

Lephia DeGrande wrote:

If you lower the amount to much no one will skill 50 days+ for 10%. And to ditch the boosting mechanic as whole would kill the complete Command Ship section at once.

This cant be the answer, sry.

The lower the level the bigger the fleet needs to be to justify bringing them a long.

Even if links only gave a 10% bonus it would be worth bringing them on a 30 man fleet. The whole on grid off grid thing is only a small part of the problem.

The biggest problem is the ******* massive bonuses it gives.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Gizznitt Malikite

Agony Unleashed

Agony Empire

Likes received: 4,267

#531 - 2013-08-06 16:15:02 UTC

Lephia DeGrande wrote:

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Sry for Double Posting, why not reverse your Numbers? The bigger the Fleet the less effective are the Bonus, so small gangs get stronger and Big fleets needs more tactics!

First, A bigger fleet can always split into smaller fleets, and I don't think that would be good for the game.

Next, The reason I posted it this way is because powerful links destroy the balance of small gang warfare unless both sides or neither side has links. This is one of the major reasons we call for a serious nerfs to off grid boosters (not the minor tweek frozzie is suggesting, but serious 80-90% nerfs). As long as the booster is off grid, they are very difficult to counter, and essentially risk little for massive gains. The "increase boosts with fleet size" is aimed at providing powerful links at fleet vs fleet levels without destroying small gang PvP.

The truth is, bring the booster on grid, and the current levels are alright... until then though, some serious changes are needed, as in much, much more viscous nerfs! I'm a can-bring-perfect-boosts character, and I'd gladly give up my warfare link spec skills to see off grid boosters removed from the game!

Crazy KSK

Tsunami Cartel

Likes received: 118

#532 - 2013-08-06 16:23:10 UTC

Omnathious Deninard wrote:

How about just delete wing command and fleet command from the game.
Many people don't like that one ship can effect so many ships, so make it so that a blob has to bring 25 boosting ships if they want to boost 250 members.

to give every squad every boost it would require quite a few more then just 25 ships

id argue for a different way, all bonuses applying to all fleet members, only the best of each link affects every member in the fleet every other link would be for redundancy

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.

Harvey James

The Sengoku Legacy

Likes received: 1,267

#533 - 2013-08-06 16:27:25 UTC

Crazy KSK wrote:

Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Well the end game after OGB has been removed is too change links to a more bubble effect so any ship within a CS bubble say 50km would be boosted in that fleet and nothing else.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Omnathious Deninard

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,623

#534 - 2013-08-06 16:47:53 UTC

Crazy KSK wrote:

Omnathious Deninard wrote:

That means you will have to pick and chose what squadrons will get what kind of boosts.
With how powerful links are both on and off grid, and command ships boost 2 types of links it is a fair trade.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Liang Nuren

No Salvation

Divine Damnation

Likes received: 4,453

#535 - 2013-08-06 18:05:27 UTC

Gypsio III wrote:

Lephia DeGrande wrote:

Garviel Tarrant wrote:

So can we all agree that the boosts should be nerfed about twice as much as this?

(The correct answer is yes)

Link nerf V2 plx.

No! Dont Blame the Booster! Its the simple Fleet mechanic and OGB which cause the Problems!

OGB has always been a smokescreen. The magnitude of the bonuses of links - sometimes three times the power of a T2 module! - makes them overpowered wherever they are.

This, so much this. The problem with links isn't on grid or off - links are just too damn powerful to start with.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.


Liang Nuren No Salvation Divine Damnation Likes received: 4,453	#536 - 2013-08-06 18:10:30 UTC Lephia DeGrande wrote: If you lower the amount to much no one will skill 50 days+ for 10%. And to ditch the boosting mechanic as whole would kill the complete Command Ship section at once. This cant be the answer, sry. You obviously haven't trained carrier 5 yet. -Liang I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren

No Salvation

Divine Damnation

Likes received: 4,453

#537 - 2013-08-06 19:00:50 UTC

Monsieur Leon wrote:

Liang Nuren wrote:

Lephia DeGrande wrote:

This is a MMORPG, if your able to organize 256 People it should have an advantage for this bunch of Players!

I highly disagree with your opinion, think how long sklling is needed to get, 1 Fleet Commander at V, 5 Wing Commander at V and 25 Squadleaders to V and have Boosters with the skills for Warefare Links... its a !!Year!!

I've got 4 characters with really solid leadership skills and I'm totally ok with CCP deleting all the leadership skills and not even reimbursing me. At the absolute minimum, gang links are far too powerful and even the nerf that is being discussed isn't nearly powerful enough.

-Liang

I think your full of ****. Put your api info in your next post so we can verify your not lying through your teeth. No one likes getting their skills nerfed. Especially to a group of skills that have only one specific use.

Whats the name of your CCP alt?

Hmmm. Liang currently is my worst skilled leadership alt and gang boosting is the primary interaction I've had with Eve since before Fanfest. Crunch time is a ***** and central services at a game company gets to crunch with AAAALLLLLLLLLLL the game teams. :(

I'm going to eschew naming off my alts, but I will say I regularly log in a triple booster setup. Feel free to peruse my character sheet: http://eveboard.com/pilot/Liang_Nuren

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Lephia DeGrande

Luxembourg Space Union

Likes received: 402

#538 - 2013-08-06 19:03:58 UTC

Liang Nuren wrote:

Lephia DeGrande wrote:

If you lower the amount to much no one will skill 50 days+ for 10%. And to ditch the boosting mechanic as whole would kill the complete Command Ship section at once.

This cant be the answer, sry.

You obviously haven't trained carrier 5 yet.

-Liang

Yep your right, but i dont want my skills get obsolete. The Boosting mechanic needs tweaking not deleting.

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup

Liang Nuren

No Salvation

Divine Damnation

Likes received: 4,453

#539 - 2013-08-06 20:17:58 UTC

Lephia DeGrande wrote:

Yep your right, but i dont want my skills get obsolete. The Boosting mechanic needs tweaking not deleting.

This is an entirely different question than the one you originally posed. You originally said that nobody would train 50 days for a 10% bonus... but the truth is that people train far more than 50 days for a 10% bonus. It's objectively provable and that objection is just invalid.

But this is a new concern you bring up. One that's a bit more self centered and far less concerned about the health of the game. Don't worry, your skills wouldn't be obsolete if CCP were to nerf links into the ground. You have to remember that the mechanic itself is extraordinarily overpowered. I wasn't kidding when I said that mindlinked links (on grid or off) should provide no more than a 5% bonus. Remember, we're talking about a 5% bonus for virtually every attribute for up to 250 people - in a world where people train months for a 5% bonus to one attribute.

You'll be fine. You just won't be OP. And neither will I. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Lephia DeGrande

Luxembourg Space Union

Likes received: 402

#540 - 2013-08-06 22:08:45 UTC

Again Liang i know what you was talking about but you argue to delete the Fleet Boost completly, my opinion may self centered (which is Common to opinions) and yes i dont care about the Health of the Game because its not broken because of 1-2% or 50% its broken by Design, completly.

But deleting the Booster bring's us to the Same Situation like it is now, every Big Fleet does have a Full Set Boosters and of course the opposite Fleet aswell, its equal, if you delete or lower the Bonus its still equal.

Thats the Problem, the Fleet Booster should be a powerfull Tool but Hard to handle during a fight.

Dont let the CS become a Miner give him work and the tools then he can be able to build something.

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup

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