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[Odyssey 1.1] Warfare Links, Mindlinks, Gang bonuses

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Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#121 - 2013-08-01 15:28:40 UTC
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
Congratulations Fozzie you have just:

1. Reduced the chances Soloers have actively fighting small gang.
2. Stopped Small gangs fighting Larger gangs without using bombers, or snipers @ 200km.

But heh, I guess no one cares about the small guys when you run a business, as they don't bring in so much revenue.

I actually thought when you first released these "ideas" that you were all high.


Um, you do know the definition of "solo" don't you? Cause I'm thinking you don't right now.


What, you think Solo is buzzing around highsec in an incursus? I think you need to start getting real, especially if you actually think RvB is :goodpvp: because let me enlighten you:

it isn't.


Nope, I think buzzing around lowsec is. Until you get to Kourm. or similar and run into 40km point Condors. Just pathetic.


..this confirms everything for me lol Lol


Hehe, yeah well you're getting nerfed and I'm not so there P

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Fewell
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#122 - 2013-08-01 15:31:11 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Fewell wrote:
Do the lowering of effective bonuses you're proposing here put links in a place where you feel comfortable leaving them off grid, or is work continuing to move them on grid?


Nothing would make me comfortable with optimal gameplay for some characters during a battle being for them to sit at a safespot.

You know just what to say to me.
Admiral Douros
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2013-08-01 15:31:15 UTC
Armor and web nerfs are going to hit wormhole groups pretty hard. Capital escalations are already fairly difficult -- nerfing armor resistances and rep amounts is going to make them even harder, and going with a Damnation for max armor boosts means that a Loki is only going to be able to web to ~40km (maybe less, I haven't run the numbers yet).

Have you considered maybe giving a bonus to warfare links in wormholes? It seems like these changes were designed without wspace in mind, and I'm a big fan of them for kspace PVP and PVE, but I think some attention needs to be paid to wspace implications.
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-08-01 15:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dez Affinity
I've said it more than a few times when people demand ON-GRID ONLY gang links but here I go again.

That will not have the effect you would like.

You will not have T3 gang boosters on grid with you, if they are they will be at 200km with a 100mn afterburner and aligned out.
If they are using a Command ship, they will be heavily tanked and only at 0 fighting you alongside other ships if they are confident it can tank you. This also means they are not only providing links but DPS. Fun for you.
If it's a "solo pvper" he knows you will run away if he's in a t1 cruiser with on grid links, so he will now switch his links to a falcon/curse/arazu/logi. Even more fun for you.

I'd personally rather fight one uber ship with disruptable gang bonsues than 2 ships with ewar or more dps.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#125 - 2013-08-01 15:32:53 UTC
Dez Affinity wrote:
I've said it more than a few times when people demand ON-GRID ONLY gang links but here I go again.

That will not have the effect you would like.

You will not have T3 gang boosters on grid with you, if they are they will be at 200km with a 100mn afterburner and aligned out.
If they are using a Command ship, they will be heavily tanked and only at 0 fighting you alongside other ships if they are confident it can tank you. This also means they are not only providing links but DPS. Fun for you.
If it's a "solo pvper" he knows you will run away if he's in a t1 cruiser with on grid links, so he will now switch his links to a falcon/curse/arazu/logi. Even more fun for you.

I'd personally rather fight one uber ship with disruptable gang bonsues than 2 ships with ewar or more dps.


And all the gatecampers (particularly the ones on highsec gates), just sit their slaved damnation orbiting the gate.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#126 - 2013-08-01 15:33:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Fewell wrote:
Do the lowering of effective bonuses you're proposing here put links in a place where you feel comfortable leaving them off grid, or is work continuing to move them on grid?


Nothing would make me comfortable with optimal gameplay for some characters during a battle being for them to sit at a safespot.


Does this imply, that at some later date when the fleet boost background mechanics are re-written, we can expect to see fleet booster ships to be moved to "on-grid"?
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-08-01 15:35:16 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
I've said it more than a few times when people demand ON-GRID ONLY gang links but here I go again.

That will not have the effect you would like.

You will not have T3 gang boosters on grid with you, if they are they will be at 200km with a 100mn afterburner and aligned out.
If they are using a Command ship, they will be heavily tanked and only at 0 fighting you alongside other ships if they are confident it can tank you. This also means they are not only providing links but DPS. Fun for you.
If it's a "solo pvper" he knows you will run away if he's in a t1 cruiser with on grid links, so he will now switch his links to a falcon/curse/arazu/logi. Even more fun for you.

I'd personally rather fight one uber ship with disruptable gang bonsues than 2 ships with ewar or more dps.


And all the gatecampers (particularly the ones on highsec gates), just sit their slaved damnation orbiting the gate.




That or pre-aligned under webs of a T1 frig so 'click-----> Warp!'

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-08-01 15:38:57 UTC
Another way to prevent some of the risk-reducing tactics used to protect link alts would be to have them inherit the aggression/suspect/criminal/weapons flags of the people they're boosting, in the same way that logistics pilots do. That'd prevent people from just keeping their linkships parked on a gate or a station undock where they can contribute to a fight but still instantly get to safety if threatened.
Fewell
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2013-08-01 15:39:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Fewell
Kenrailae wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
I've said it more than a few times when people demand ON-GRID ONLY gang links but here I go again.

That will not have the effect you would like.

You will not have T3 gang boosters on grid with you, if they are they will be at 200km with a 100mn afterburner and aligned out.
If they are using a Command ship, they will be heavily tanked and only at 0 fighting you alongside other ships if they are confident it can tank you. This also means they are not only providing links but DPS. Fun for you.
If it's a "solo pvper" he knows you will run away if he's in a t1 cruiser with on grid links, so he will now switch his links to a falcon/curse/arazu/logi. Even more fun for you.

I'd personally rather fight one uber ship with disruptable gang bonsues than 2 ships with ewar or more dps.


And all the gatecampers (particularly the ones on highsec gates), just sit their slaved damnation orbiting the gate.




That or pre-aligned under webs of a T1 frig so 'click-----> Warp!'

Can't boost while you've been forced to warp.
On grid scanning is a thing.
This wouldn't work out so well. Having to use tanked command ships is a good thing. No they won't be easy to kill, but neuts can keep turning the links off, so there will be options to deal with them. Untanked tech 3 boosters will be gone, not sad at all.
Rainbow Prism Colorblind
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#130 - 2013-08-01 15:40:56 UTC
I have not much complains on the ship shanges or the out of pos bosting shanges.

My consern is more about havint implants/items easybly acceble and cheaper to get.

I dislike that it becomes a grind incutions to get all items game.

long work for special epic/soryline misson for good lot may soon not serve a purpus if you can just do
incurtion grinding to get evertying you need cheaply and safely.

I would want to see a more hard to get items that you need to get as drop not just get evertying you need from LP stores.

Just my point of view, also seeding easy to get items into a working market will make it unstable and some items may
even disepear from the market becorse there to easy to get from LP stores.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#131 - 2013-08-01 15:40:59 UTC
Admiral Douros wrote:
Armor and web nerfs are going to hit wormhole groups pretty hard. Capital escalations are already fairly difficult -- nerfing armor resistances and rep amounts is going to make them even harder, and going with a Damnation for max armor boosts means that a Loki is only going to be able to web to ~40km (maybe less, I haven't run the numbers yet).

Have you considered maybe giving a bonus to warfare links in wormholes? It seems like these changes were designed without wspace in mind, and I'm a big fan of them for kspace PVP and PVE, but I think some attention needs to be paid to wspace implications.


You know, you could use more than one fleet boosting ship... A Damnation for Info & Armor, and a Claymore for skirmish and siege. Additional, with the Navy Mindlinks, you'll get the max boosts on all 12 links!!!! Then you get your bonused webs, bonused paints, bonused Armor, and bonused shields to boot!



Asher Elias
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2013-08-01 15:41:15 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Fewell wrote:
Do the lowering of effective bonuses you're proposing here put links in a place where you feel comfortable leaving them off grid, or is work continuing to move them on grid?


Nothing would make me comfortable with optimal gameplay for some characters during a battle being for them to sit at a safespot.





I guess the thing is that I can't envision a way to make bonus characters "fun" if they were on-grid. As it is every bonus character in the game is someone's alt so they are presumably having fun doing something else. Personally I wouldn't mind bonus ships being removed completely, but unless you actually have a way to make them enjoyable to fly I wouldn't force them on-grid.
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#133 - 2013-08-01 15:42:51 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
navy mindlinks? are you kidding me?
hell yeah!!!!

Lol What do you think, sir, Navy Links will be better because they Faction Stuff? Rofl, don't even dream about, i bet we will get the overpriced old stuff renamed, just like they did to battlecruisers, and this all after the shitload of imbalance hypochrisy.Lol
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2013-08-01 15:44:46 UTC
Fewell wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
I've said it more than a few times when people demand ON-GRID ONLY gang links but here I go again.

That will not have the effect you would like.

You will not have T3 gang boosters on grid with you, if they are they will be at 200km with a 100mn afterburner and aligned out.
If they are using a Command ship, they will be heavily tanked and only at 0 fighting you alongside other ships if they are confident it can tank you. This also means they are not only providing links but DPS. Fun for you.
If it's a "solo pvper" he knows you will run away if he's in a t1 cruiser with on grid links, so he will now switch his links to a falcon/curse/arazu/logi. Even more fun for you.

I'd personally rather fight one uber ship with disruptable gang bonsues than 2 ships with ewar or more dps.


And all the gatecampers (particularly the ones on highsec gates), just sit their slaved damnation orbiting the gate.




That or pre-aligned under webs of a T1 frig so 'click-----> Warp!'

Can't boost while you've been forced to warp.
On grid scanning is a thing.
This wouldn't work out so well. Having to use tanked command ships is a good thing. No they won't be easy to kill, but neuts can keep turning the links off, so there will be options to deal with them. Untanked tech 3 boosters will be gone, not sad at all.




L2Eve.

It'd only warp when it had to, and would be within warp range of the rest of it's fleet.... GG. Gate camping works on the premise of 'Can I kill it? Y/N? Warp/Kill'

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#135 - 2013-08-01 15:45:12 UTC
Hey, this is a good start. I'd still say the bonuses are a bit large compared to the scale on which the rest of the game operates, though.

Fozzie, does CCP have any plans to allow ganglinks on ships other than battlecruiser/tech 3 hulls?
Starfall Achura
Angels of Achura
#136 - 2013-08-01 15:46:07 UTC
Get rid of target painting as the racial ewar for (make it a universal skill) and give them an ewar that degrades link bonuses. The further out the booster is the more of a percentage the gang loses. Should hinder off grid boosting and force boosters closer to e fight. The ewar would have to do something else I guess to be relevant in non boosted gangs but it would be something minor.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#137 - 2013-08-01 15:46:51 UTC
The powergrid reduction is a nice start but still too little for most T1 bc's to fit them without pg implants and rigs.

some of the potential numbers still seem a little excessive 50% .. 35%

Mindlink implants are still far too high at 25% no other implant in the game comes close to this in anyway .. and you are making them cheaper and more readily available by the sounds of it. especially with OGB still available..

Also disappointed that the Proteus doesn't get access to siege warfare gallente shield tank too you know..

I would certainly prefer more of the strength of the bonus coming from the module rather than implants to simplify where the bonuses is coming from as it can be hard to work out how a link goes from 9% to 50% ...seriously you need to simplify the calculations

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sante Ixnay
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2013-08-01 15:47:17 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
maybe first?

e: boom

e2:

Quote:
Warfare links (other than mining links) can no longer be activated inside a starbase forcefield

It's previously been suggested that active links cause an increase in a ship's sig radius (thus discouraging the 'AFK in a safespot' approach by making them easier to probe. Has this been considered?


It has been heavily considered and a similar idea (using sensor strength instead of sig radius) was actually a part of one version of this proposal. However we've decided to wait and see how these changes work out before doing something that could potentially make playing ongrid with these ships worse in the name of making offgrid use even worser. (I know it's not a word but it should be.)


Maybe another good reason to have a distinct Probeabilitudity attribute, separating it from signature and sensor strength.

I too enjoy making up words. :)
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2013-08-01 15:47:42 UTC
OldWolf69 wrote:
Mole Guy wrote:
navy mindlinks? are you kidding me?
hell yeah!!!!

Lol What do you think, sir, Navy Links will be better because they Faction Stuff? Rofl, don't even dream about, i bet we will get the overpriced old stuff renamed, just like they did to battlecruisers, and this all after the shitload of imbalance hypochrisy.Lol

CCP Fozzie wrote:

Adding normal mindlinks (including mining mindlinks) to the Concord LP store for 20,000 Concord LP and 20m isk (~60-80m final product sale price).
Adding Navy Mindlinks with the 25% bonus to two different disciplines at once (matching racial command ship bonuses) to the normal racial LP stores at 150,000 LP and 50m isk (~200m isk final product sale price).

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2013-08-01 15:48:10 UTC
Waah! I bought my alt a Mining Foreman Mindlink and now I want a refund!

Just kidding. I paid my early adoption tax, and I accept that I'm stuck with it, but it's nice that there'll now be a source for the mindlinks aside from random drops.

Wonder how hard it would be, programming-wise, for a fleet booster to get tagged with aggression flags for any ship it's boosting? (IE: fleet boosters are treated as commanders, so they bear responsibility for anything their fleetmates do, so if an out-of-corp Damnation is boosting someone who does something that would give the Damnation a suspect flag or get the Damnation CONCORDed if it did it itself...)

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt