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Balancing Feedback: Capital Ships

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Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
#141 - 2011-11-10 18:01:42 UTC
Also, the Hel's remote repair bonuses are just silly. Fighterbombers aside, why even use a Hel in lieu of a Nidhoggur at a tenth of the cost (I guess it can't be jammed or whatever but yeah it's still pretty dumb)
Seeme Not
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#142 - 2011-11-10 18:06:08 UTC
CCPtallest wrote:

Titan tracking issue:
* "Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare" will also make you immune to remote "electronic assistance", that is: remote tracking enhancers and remote sensor boosters.


This must be a farce, a mean spirited jape. PL's ability to successfully camp Amamake or win subcap engagements by cheating with super caps would vanish in the blink of an eye.

Local chat will be a dry, desolate wasteland if this change is put into effect.
Crias Taylor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2011-11-10 18:06:17 UTC
The hel looks mostly like **** cause of slaves on an aeon. You take slaves out of the picture and you get a much more interesting mix of super capitals.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#144 - 2011-11-10 18:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Svennig
CCP Tallest wrote:
Update:

Nidhoggur:
* 7,5% bonus to armor and shield transfer amount per carrier level instead of 5%.
* +30000 PG
* +2500 capacitor capacity (recharge time will be changed to have same base recharge.)



Hi Tallest,

Love to see that the nid (and minmatar caps in general) are getting some love. However, the nid still needs some help above and beyond what you've posted above.

The reppyest carrier around can't fit anywhere near a full triage rack. The archon can easily fit 4 capital remote armor reps and the triage module, with no fitting mods, and it's got that 5% bonus per level to resists and a massive capacitor. 81k GJ compared to 68k GJ of the Nid after your buff.

In comparison, a four-armor-rep triage nid is at 132% powergrid. If we completely gimp the carrier and drop a rep, we're at 111% of powergrid (800kMW, more than 80MW over and therefore still more than your buff).

A four-shield-rep triage nid is at 127% CPU. And that hasn't recieved a bonus at all. The only way that it fits is if you drop two reps.

And, what's worse, is that even without triage, it can't fit a full rack of either armor or shield reps. For the reppyest carrier in the game to be so terrible at repping purely because of fitting issues is disappointing.
Aragote
Fat Dragon Mining Co.
Darwinism.
#145 - 2011-11-10 18:12:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Aragote
EDIT: Double post
Aragote
Fat Dragon Mining Co.
Darwinism.
#146 - 2011-11-10 18:13:16 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Aragote wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Aragote wrote:
clap clap, motherships continue on the path of uselessnes go ccp go...

less of a supercap blob to destroy subcap fleets = working as intended.

Your alliance's modus operandi was limited to one trick, sounds like a personal problem.


Yes the ad hominem argument, always leads to such a nice debate....

Please tell me with the current changes in mind why would any body fly a supercarrier in the form they will be after the patch? They are going to be massive slow bricks with dps comparable / worse then that of a dread. Dps that is removable with a single decent bombing run and they can not even use that dps to reinforce poses.

Changes in this form will make supercarriers like the motherships of the old. None existent and definitely not worth their price. But you will see the 150 man carrier/dread blobs with the titans put in the mix for good measure.

Dreads do not need any more buffs then those that are incoming. Even those might be a bit over the top.


I've been on both sides of this as a super pilot and now freed from being one.

With the changes, moms will be less effective on the front lines of the battlefield. But you can't look at them alone.

The dread buffs will make them more useful in combat- where you use them over a subcap/BC fleet that takes out a POS. In many retrospects, buffing POS guns on large towers might go a long way to helping with this. CCP has buffed the EHP on subcaps to where they can do a dread's job- take out fortifications.

Bring more dreads by buffing them and making them more viable, drop or reduce the negative effects of boosters, and you will also see carriers being used in a more offensive role as well (with the triage buff).

Your mom is still a cap killer. It's a damn good one at that, especially now it can still carry a healthy mix. It can still kill titans. And with the remote nerf to titans you will also live longer to kill more. With Titans and dreads unable to just log you will also be able to kill more with them.


Yes, you can no longer drop 5-20 moms on a subcap fleet and that sucks. But really they are overpowered and you know this. Of course the price is steep, and the drawbacks severe but you knew this coming in. you knew they were overpowered when Apocrypha was released, and you knew that eventually the prevailance of superblobs would become a game breaking issue.

Yes, I have a slight bias from being in MM. We could not match 200-300 supers on the field. You know.. you KNOW this was a problem. These super, super fleets could chew through POSs, iHubs, and stations in minutes.

Capital warfare should remain capital. It should involve a support fleet. And I'm sorry but some of these super alliances with hundreds of supers are going to hurt... just as much as they benefitted from them being overpowered.



Oh i perfectly agree with that. I have been a loud supporter of the supercapital nerf. I agree with the ehp removal. And i agree with the removal of classical drone bay. What i dont agree with is the reducing the drone bay size so much that you can only field 20 + some little spare amount of drones. Increase the drone bay amount so the scs can carry 40 drones so they can chose between utility or at least SOME versatility if they want to risk having their entire dps removed by a single bombing run.

And their dps role is vastly overshadowed by titans. It always was. What supercarriers were good for is larger force projection which they will lose now. (NOT A BAD THING!) But they still need another role then just pure anti capital dps platform. You have dreads and titans for that. Titans have other perks while dreads can dock. Supercarriers get all of the - but none of the +.
Giving them the ability to carry 40 fighters/fighter bombers would at least give them something.
Crias Taylor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2011-11-10 18:19:17 UTC
If only they could do something with clone vat bays and their SMA that didn't totally blow ass or make them ******** overpowered.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#148 - 2011-11-10 18:19:54 UTC
Svennig wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Update:

Nidhoggur:
* 7,5% bonus to armor and shield transfer amount per carrier level instead of 5%.
* +30000 PG
* +2500 capacitor capacity (recharge time will be changed to have same base recharge.)



Hi Tallest,

Love to see that the nid (and minmatar caps in general) are getting some love. However, the nid still needs some help above and beyond what you've posted above.

The reppyest carrier around can't fit anywhere near a full triage rack. The archon can easily fit 4 capital remote armor reps and the triage module, with no fitting mods, and it's got that 5% bonus per level to resists and a massive capacitor. 81k GJ compared to 68k GJ of the Nid after your buff.

In comparison, a four-armor-rep triage nid is at 132% powergrid. If we completely gimp the carrier and drop a rep, we're at 111% of powergrid (800kMW, more than 80MW over and therefore still more than your buff).

A four-shield-rep triage nid is at 127% CPU. And that hasn't recieved a bonus at all. The only way that it fits is if you drop two reps.

And, what's worse, is that even without triage, it can't fit a full rack of either armor or shield reps. For the reppyest carrier in the game to be so terrible at repping purely because of fitting issues is disappointing.



I don't have a way to check this fit, but how does a triage mix fit work out? (2 shield, 2 armor)

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
ATTAKowl
Standard Issue Strategic Action
#149 - 2011-11-10 18:28:58 UTC
They should give carriers and SCs two unbonused turret hardpoints just for fun, whats the worst that could happen? Lol
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#150 - 2011-11-10 18:29:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Aragote wrote:

Oh i perfectly agree with that. I have been a loud supporter of the supercapital nerf. I agree with the ehp removal. And i agree with the removal of classical drone bay. What i dont agree with is the reducing the drone bay size so much that you can only field 20 + some little spare amount of drones. Increase the drone bay amount so the scs can carry 40 drones so they can chose between utility or at least SOME versatility if they want to risk having their entire dps removed by a single bombing run.

And their dps role is vastly overshadowed by titans. It always was. What supercarriers were good for is larger force projection which they will lose now. (NOT A BAD THING!) But they still need another role then just pure anti capital dps platform. You have dreads and titans for that. Titans have other perks while dreads can dock. Supercarriers get all of the - but none of the +.
Giving them the ability to carry 40 fighters/fighter bombers would at least give them something.


I want to address your wording of "force projection" because it is vital. the fact that one could jump tens of these onto any size fleet, including small gangs, is what you are referring to. They are high mobility, EW-immune, massive damage hellbeast killers that are untouchable without another fleet of them. As such there is no counter other than outblob the blob, ad infinitum.


They did raise the drone bay capacity although not by as much:

Quote:
All supercarriers: dronebay +25000 (5 extra fighters/fb)


Throw some in your corp hanger (you can fit 10 max in a Wyvern) so now you have a full drone bay +5 and 10 in a corp hanger. Other drones, like sentries/ECM/logistics? That's what carrier support is for. Titans will of course out DPS a mom, they're titans.

In all honesty, your scenarios list things that a proper subcap fleet can work with. bombers in the area? Have dictors 30km from the area of attack with bubbles.

At the end of the day, your support is your versatility.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Oberus MacKenzie
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#151 - 2011-11-10 18:32:41 UTC
I agree with Aragote. If you're going to restrict SC's to 2 types of drones at least give them room for spares. I wouldn't want to pay 15+ billion ISK for something that a bomber/cynabal/anything can easily neuter. At that point, who cares if they are immune to ewar?
That being said, I love the SC nerf. The tears from SC pilots over having their "one ship armada" title stripped away are understandable but way overdue. Enjoy the memories and learn to fit RR.

As for the "implants would make Drakes super powerful" complaints, please ignore them. If someone wants to drop that much money on implants for a 60m ISK ship then it deserves to be hard to kill. The drake is one of a very few number of Caldari ships that can actually go toe-to-toe with other races and that is due entirely to its heavy tank. Stripping its shield resist bonus and nerfing its regen rate would relegate it to the same trash pile that the Moa and Rokh have been confined to.
Crias Taylor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2011-11-10 18:36:56 UTC
No, blowing up FB cause you don't have the support to stop them should be an option.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#153 - 2011-11-10 18:47:36 UTC
Oberus MacKenzie wrote:
I agree with Aragote. If you're going to restrict SC's to 2 types of drones at least give them room for spares. I wouldn't want to pay 15+ billion ISK for something that a bomber/cynabal/anything can easily neuter. At that point, who cares if they are immune to ewar?
That being said, I love the SC nerf. The tears from SC pilots over having their "one ship armada" title stripped away are understandable but way overdue. Enjoy the memories and learn to fit RR.

As for the "implants would make Drakes super powerful" complaints, please ignore them. If someone wants to drop that much money on implants for a 60m ISK ship then it deserves to be hard to kill. The drake is one of a very few number of Caldari ships that can actually go toe-to-toe with other races and that is due entirely to its heavy tank. Stripping its shield resist bonus and nerfing its regen rate would relegate it to the same trash pile that the Moa and Rokh have been confined to.


What's a cynabal/anything going to do to a super? Nothing.

Even a single bomber can't take out a FB or fighter unless it's being recalled and MWDs.

If you are ANYWHERE near where there is a fleet of those subcaps- even 8-10 of them, you should not be alone in your super or yes, you will die.

Saying it's not fair to pay 15b ISK for them to be vulnerable to losing offensive capibilities is stupid. It's scalable to saying you shouldn't lose a Vindicator to a Dramiel but you still can if you fly it like an idiot.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#154 - 2011-11-10 18:50:09 UTC
I largely don't have a problem with limiting SC to F/FB; my main concern over this was just addressed with the additional space--that is, adjusting your loadout is a PITA since you can't exactly dock and swap out drones in the bay, so being able to carry full flights+spares is a good thing.

Really looking forward to this update!
MastahFR
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2011-11-10 18:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: MastahFR
The bonus for the Hel is still crap and should be changed to something else. No one ever used his Hel as a remote reping battery which cost 20bil.
If you really wish to apply this bonus, then also add a bonus toward cap regen.

After this patch a fitted Hel should have equal EHP as Nyx with fit and implants (both ship price + fit will be similar or close). The Nyx bonus is toward DPS, the Hel bonus is toward remote repping (lol?). So both should have same fitted EHP.
It's the same for Aeon and Wyvern especially since they both have the same bonus.

Also please :
CCP Tallest wrote:
Update:
* Shield leadership bonus should work like an armor bonus and not require recharging shields after every jump.
* There needs to be a shield HP implant set as a counterbalance to the Slave set.
* There needs to be a remote shield boost implant like the 'Gentry' ZEX2000 is for armor
* There need to be deadspace shield invulnerability fields equivalent to the A-Type EANM modules
Kazumi Amano
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2011-11-10 18:56:24 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Update:

* Shield leadership bonus should work like an armor bonus and not require recharging shields after every jump.


Hopefully this will also fix the issue when entering a ship from an SMA and having it start at 30% shield. Pretty please?

Or how about when you enter a wormhole with shield hp buff?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#157 - 2011-11-10 18:58:07 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Update:

Based on feedback, the following changes have been made in addition to the previously proposed changes. They will most likely come to SISI on Monday or Tuesday.

Supercarriers
* All supercarriers: dronebay +25000 (5 extra fighters/fb)

Shield supercapitals
* Shield nerf changed from -20% to -10% (shield recharge rate also changed accordingly)
** New values should be 90% of current TQ value

Naglfar
* +2500 capacitor capacity (recharge time will be changed to have same base recharge.)

Nidhoggur:
* 7,5% bonus to armor and shield transfer amount per carrier level instead of 5%.
* +30000 PG
* +2500 capacitor capacity (recharge time will be changed to have same base recharge.)

Hel:
* 7,5% bonus to armor and shield transfer amount per carrier level instead of 5%.
* +5000 capacitor capacity (recharge time will be changed to have same base recharge.)

XL autocannons:
* +50% falloff

Titan tracking issue:
* "Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare" will also make you immune to remote "electronic assistance", that is: remote tracking enhancers and remote sensor boosters.


I also want to tell you that there are other very valid concerns that we will be looking into, but they will not make it into the November release. We don't have the solutions to all of these, but as I said, we will to try to find solutions to these issues after the November release.

* Shield leadership bonus should work like an armor bonus and not require recharging shields after every jump.
* Capital ships cyno bumping/bouncing issue
* XL missiles explosion radius and explosion velocity
* There needs to be a shield HP implant set as a counterbalance to the Slave set.
* There needs to be a remote shield boost implant like the 'Gentry' ZEX2000 is for armor
* There need to be deadspace shield invulnerability fields equivalent to the A-Type EANM modules


I am liking everything in this.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#158 - 2011-11-10 19:03:48 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Awesome, thank you!

CCP Tallest wrote:
* There need to be deadspace shield invulnerability fields equivalent to the A-Type EANM modules
One of the biggest problems here is that shield faction modules are exorbitantly more expensive than the corresponding armor modules. E.g. there is no "Imperial navy EANM" equivalent for shields for 30m, say. CN invuls are better, but they're also at 300m.

Consider why that is though.
Lacking a deadspace level in between officer and faction, those that would have liked to buy a deadspace one but can't afford an officer one will instead be willing to pay close to the same for a faction invul.
Adding deadspace invuls will make any shield supercap that is using faction right now get rid of their faction invuls and get those deadspace ones, and some will do the same for other ships, thus prices drop. The faction damage specific armor hardeners cost roughly as much as the shield equivalents, the invul is the only one that doesn't and it also happens to be the only one that lacks deadpsace versions.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#159 - 2011-11-10 19:57:45 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:

I don't have a way to check this fit, but how does a triage mix fit work out? (2 shield, 2 armor)


Under on CPU (96.4%), 111% of powergrid. The powergrid is over by 81K MW.

But it's a fit that no-one's going to use on triage.

If you're doing a rooks'n'kings style support of subcaps, you want a full rack. No-one runs mixed gangs.
If you're doing hail-mary rep of, say, a titan, you want a full rack. But you can drop the CARs so you're under.
If you're repping POS shields, you want a full rack. And even without triage or CARs, you're over on cap.
If you're repping station shields, you want a full rack. And even without triage or CARs, you're over on cap.

Look at it this way.

Non-triaged, a 4x CRAR fit works fine without the powergrid buff, and that's with a heavy neut or smartie.
Non-triaged, a 4x CST fit is at 107% CPU with an empty highslot.

The Nid's problem isn't the powergrid , it's the CPU.

wanking monkey girl
Doomheim
#160 - 2011-11-10 20:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: wanking monkey girl
@CCP Tallest

ewar inmune is a welcome change thank you

further add to the super carrier to allow them to have the 20 fb and 20 fighters,

chimera review and triage state
boost the capacitor to allow it to run 4 reps in triage with a full cap fit, at the moment a thanatos is able to do this but the prime shield carrier can not.

Quote:
Update (10/11/11): Based on feedback, the following changes will be made in addition to the previously proposed changes. They should hit SISI on Monday November 14th or Tuesday the 15th.


can we have them all listed this is the first post in this thread but gives no info to the other changes.

with the changes to super carrier will we be able to see them dock at some point its makes no sense to not let them dock given their role in eve after the next expansion, unable to defend itself to a solo hic for a possible 23h if it has agro.