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Matching Fleet PvP
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Elliavir
Miskatonic Mercantile
#41 - 2013-07-23 06:57:22 UTC
Forums Bot wrote:
"EvE is driven by player-created content" is a myth to me. I don't see any difference between EvE and other games in this aspect. The well advertised EvE career paths are missioning, mining, exploring, crafting, and trading. There are other activities players can participate in, such as FW, Incursion, Sov fighting, and etc. CCP create mechanisms for all of these activities and players participate in them. What's so special about it? What content did players create? You may point out that there are activities such as BvR and Burn Jita. But events similar to these can be found in other games too without claiming the content is mainly driven by players.


Blizzard decided that the Horde and Alliance were going to war... and decided where, why, for how long, and under what terms. Most recently a really irritating arc involving pandas and archaeology. If you play WoW, all you really get to do is play along with their script.

CCP did not decide that war would break out in Fountain recently - that was players. CCP didn't sponsor any of the Hulkageddons - that was players. CCP wasn't responsible for the totally insignificant war my corp was in a couple of weeks ago - that was players. Almost all in-game events, outside of some of the tournaments, are because of players.

Or, put another way... nothing you or I or anyone else does changes one thing in Azeroth. You can camp a town for weeks - and at the end of that time, it will still have the same buildings, same NPCs, same quests, and same affiliation. You can't turn the Crossroads into an Alliance town no matter how many times you slay the locals.

You can change New Eden. Folks do it every day. That is the difference between EVE's sandbox and most other delveloper-storyline MMOs.
Forums Bot
Doomheim
#42 - 2013-07-23 07:23:26 UTC
Elliavir wrote:

Blizzard decided that the Horde and Alliance were going to war... and decided where, why, for how long, and under what terms.


Maybe you haven't played WoW since what you are saying is not true.

Elliavir wrote:
CCP did not decide that war would break out in Fountain recently - that was players. CCP didn't sponsor any of the Hulkageddons - that was players. CCP wasn't responsible for the totally insignificant war my corp was in a couple of weeks ago - that was players. Almost all in-game events, outside of some of the tournaments, are because of players.


Based on this definition, WoW is player driven when a guild decide to have bunch of people raid Crossroads.

Elliavir wrote:
Or, put another way... nothing you or I or anyone else does changes one thing in Azeroth. You can camp a town for weeks - and at the end of that time, it will still have the same buildings, same NPCs, same quests, and same affiliation. You can't turn the Crossroads into an Alliance town no matter how many times you slay the locals.


There are bunch of other games allow you to capture in game structures. But I don't believe you think they are "player driven".

There are truely player driven games out there, for example, Minecraft. But you probably would laugh at that game also.

You need sound reasoning to bridge the gap between what you claim and what is true. You provided none.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2013-07-23 09:53:41 UTC
Forums Bot wrote:
Maybe you haven't played WoW since what you are saying is not true.
Detailed analysis there. What's wrong about it?

Anyway, the war between NPC factions is not what makes or breaks the concept of player-driven content. It's the fact that, unlike in pretty much all other games (except maybe PS2), everything that happens in the game happens because players decide to go to war against each other. It's what drives the entire economy from the first bit of mining all the way through to the last bit of insurance ISK.

What's special about the advertised career paths is that only two of them come with pre-defined content (exploration and missions); the rest is up to you to create using various low-level tools, and even those two are entirely reliant on the player-created and player-run conflicts to have any real meaning.

Quote:
There are bunch of other games allow you to capture in game structures. But I don't believe you think they are "player driven".
That's because nothing changes when they do. Some static and pre-determined items have a flag set to a different ID, that's all. Nothing in the game actually changed. EVE, being a player-driven game, lets you put up or tear down those structures.
Forums Bot
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-07-23 10:09:48 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Anyway, the war between NPC factions is not what makes or breaks the concept of player-driven content. It's the fact that, unlike in pretty much all other games (except maybe PS2), everything that happens in the game happens because players decide to go to war against each other. It's what drives the entire economy from the first bit of mining all the way through to the last bit of insurance ISK.


You are confusing you do things in the game with gaming content being driven by players. You can decide what you do in any other games as well.

Tippia wrote:
What's special about the advertised career paths is that only two of them come with pre-defined content (exploration and missions); the rest is up to you to create using various low-level tools, and even those two are entirely reliant on the player-created and player-run conflicts to have any real meaning.


Its called gathering and crafting in most of other games. Some how you think it's unique in EvE. A little self-centric I would say.

Quote:
That's because nothing changes when they do. Some static and pre-determined items have a flag set to a different ID, that's all. Nothing in the game actually changed. EVE, being a player-driven game, lets you put up or tear down those structures.


Yeah, what does that prove? CCP creates a mechanism for players to do so and players do it.

I do agree that EvE gives players more freedoms in game play compared to some other games. But don't confuse simply do things in the game as driving the content. If that's so, every mmo is player driven and the term loses its supposed meaning.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2013-07-23 10:18:31 UTC
Forums Bot wrote:


Based on this definition, WoW is player driven when a guild decide to have bunch of people raid Crossroads.



Noone raided crossroads since Burning Crusade. Have you even played wow?

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Forums Bot
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-07-23 10:37:19 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Forums Bot wrote:


Based on this definition, WoW is player driven when a guild decide to have bunch of people raid Crossroads.



Noone raided crossroads since Burning Crusade. Have you even played wow?


Hmm I am speechless... Am I dealing with an adult who is capable of arguing sensibly?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#47 - 2013-07-23 11:03:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Forums Bot wrote:
You are confusing you do things in the game with gaming content being driven by players.
No, I'm really not. You see, in this game, they're both the same. What people do is the content. That's the whole point of a sandbox, as opposed to a themepark, where the content is just something pre-defined that you consume.

Just because you can decide what pre-defined content to consume in other games doesn't mean that this makes that consumption content.

Quote:
Its called gathering and crafting in most of other games. Some how you think it's unique in EvE.
No. Try again.

Quote:
Yeah, what does that prove?
It proves that the content is player-generated rather than designed by the devs. Unless you want to go back on your previous example of minecraft as player-generated content, seeing as how all the build schemata are defined by the devs…

Oh, and you didn't answer the question: what was wrong with what Elliavir said?
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#48 - 2013-07-23 11:05:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorden Ishonen
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Naes Mlahrend wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:
I would like some way of fair fights.

While I know this is impossible I'd still hope CCP changes novice FW plexs to not allow in tech 2 equibed ships. That would make these sites so much fairer for new players.


It seriously doesn't take that long to train most T2 items...


its going to take me 9 days to train light missiles to level 5 from level 4. Is that considered short for low sp players?


....yes?

Have you seriously not yet caught on that EVE is not the kind of MMO where you play for 18 hours a day to grind up to max level so you can rip through some pathetic canned PvE/PvP endgame? With the way levels cap and the limited number of skills that can enhance any given ship, it's more than possible to max out certain ship types and be able to fly those better than 4 year vets...but you still won't get to that point in two months. Look up Tippia's guides in his sig to get an idea of your options for skilling up and how it'll effect ship performance.

To the OP: EVE already has RvB if you want per-arranged combat. Given the sandbox design of EVE, the developers are less inclined to spoonfeed us content through hard-coded game mechanisms than other MMOs, preferring instead to give us the tools we need to create our own content. We tend to regard this as a good thing, except for the people too lazy or stupid to survive a universe that isn't programmed to wipe their ass for them.
Forums Bot
Doomheim
#49 - 2013-07-23 11:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Forums Bot
Tippia wrote:
No, I'm really not. You see, in this game, they're both the same. What people do is the content. That's the whole point of a sandbox, as opposed to a themepark, where the content is just something pre-defined that you consume.


What you are saying basically is "It's true because I say so".

Tippia wrote:
Just because you can decide what pre-defined content to consume in other games doesn't mean that this makes that consumption content.


What is not pre-defined in this game? I am sure you are not talking about missioning, exploration, Incursion, FW, and etc. The rest of the "sandbox" you are talking about can be summarized by "open world PvP". There are many such games out there, it's nothing new or unique.

Tippia wrote:
Its called gathering and crafting in most of other games. Some how you think it's unique in EvE.
No. Try again.


Try what? You simply said no and didn't provide any counter argument. "It's so because I say so" again.

Tippia wrote:
It proves that the content is player-generated rather than designed by the devs. Unless you want to go back on your previous example of minecraft as player-generated content, seeing as how all the build schemata are defined by the devs…


Again you just repeatedly say EvE's content is player generated without giving any reasonable argument.


Tippia wrote:
Oh, and you didn't answer the question: what was wrong with what Elliavir said?


I posted a point-by-point counter argument to her/his post. Not sure what I missed.
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#50 - 2013-07-23 11:34:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorden Ishonen
Forums Bot wrote:


Second, "EvE is driven by player-created content" is a myth to me. I don't see any difference between EvE and other games in this aspect. The well advertised EvE career paths are missioning, mining, exploring, crafting, and trading. There are other activities players can participate in, such as FW, Incursion, Sov fighting, and etc. CCP create mechanisms for all of these activities and players participate in them. What's so special about it? What content did players create? You may point out that there are activities such as BvR and Burn Jita. But events similar to these can be found in other games too without claiming the content is mainly driven by players.


Well, let's see.

For one, the economy. Loss of ship and module on death creates a constant demand for goods. Resources have to be mined by players, and then those resources need to be turned into goods, which are then sold and re-sold by marketeers. Compare to other MMOs like WoW, where "mats" tend to cost more than the item they actually create because no one NEEDS a Crafted Blade of +1 Less Suck, because they just picked up that +3 Blade of Much Less Sucking. Meaning, because doing the crafting improves the skills, the mats are valuable only for their ability to level up the skill so that MAYBE a few useful items at the top can be crafted for players that haven't gotten a good drop in a raid yet. Quite a bit of difference, and if you can't see it, well..

Pre-defined factions. If you're Alliance, the enemy is the Horde and vice versa. Any exceptions to this rule are determined by the game, not the players. Whereas in EVE you can be buddy-buddy with guys that were trying to blow up you a week ago. Even factional warfare isn't restricted; if your Gallente finds God s/he can leave the FDU and go join the 24th Crusade.

Scams, cons, and other skullduggery. How many other games can an hours old player potentially come into huge wealth through scamming and not only not be banned, but be encouraged? Again, this isn't a universe that looks out for you, it's very much an uncaring environment at best unless you can carve out a niche for yourself with some mates.

Wormholes. More of an example of how EVE players drive content, the developers didn't expect players to colonize wormholes. They thought the logistics would be near impossible to overcome. But players DID overcome, and CCP's reaction? "Cool!" They rolled with it, where other developers might have said "That wasn't intended gameplay" and squashed it.

That's just what I can think of off the top of my head. If you can share any equivalences between what I mentioned and WoW, go right ahead.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-07-23 11:54:28 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Naes Mlahrend wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:
I would like some way of fair fights.

While I know this is impossible I'd still hope CCP changes novice FW plexs to not allow in tech 2 equibed ships. That would make these sites so much fairer for new players.


It seriously doesn't take that long to train most T2 items...


its going to take me 9 days to train light missiles to level 5 from level 4. Is that considered short for low sp players?


9 days to be able to match eve online vets when it comes to frigate warfare?

Yeah thats really short.


Go play another MMO where you have to reach level -Arbitrary number- before you can start the never ending grind for items.
baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#52 - 2013-07-23 12:12:58 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Forums Bot wrote:


Again you just repeatedly say EvE's content is player generated without giving any reasonable argument.




The Great War, The fall of BoB, The massacre of 6NJ8-V, Hulkageddon, the mining interdictions, the EVE Bank robbery, the emo TJ incident, rage against the statue, the battle of asakai, the russian civil war, IRC game reserve, ASCN's loss of "Steve", VFK headshot.

Every big event to every happen in EVE was all down to players making our own content. CCP simply provide us the ships and tools to do things.
Trudeaux Margaret
University of Caille
#53 - 2013-07-23 12:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Trudeaux Margaret
Forums Bot wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Forums Bot wrote:


Based on this definition, WoW is player driven when a guild decide to have bunch of people raid Crossroads.



Noone raided crossroads since Burning Crusade. Have you even played wow?


Hmm I am speechless... Am I dealing with an adult who is capable of arguing sensibly?



He's correct. The implementation of arena essentially killed off large-scale open-world PvP in World of Warcraft except on on a couple of the RP-PvP servers such as Emerald Dream-US. It happened slowly, but it did happen. "World PvP" in that game now consists of cross-realm zone ganking at the Dark Portal.

Which is exactly what led me to EVE -- the concept of a "sandbox" game intrigued me; I had read about EVE for years but I had never tried it; I loathe the structured grindfest that is WoW PvP and how it is next to impossible to get a foothold in it without being a max-level character who has spent countless hours grinding whatever the current expansion's currency happens to be to get the best gear so you won't be one-shot by a Gladiator. And you want to put in a system in EVE that will put this game on a road towards a similar system? X

This game is great because everything is PvP and anyone can win at something -- if you're willing to put in the work. If you don't see that then I am sad for you.

> anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course?

> grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#54 - 2013-07-23 14:16:14 UTC
I find it funny the way that the concept of 'player-driven content' controls this game.

PvP in this game is rather blobby and unfair most of the time.

Anytime someone comes forward and asks for a CCP provided mechanism to test their skills on a level playing field the 'sandbox' fanboys come out of the woodwork and claim it goes against the premise of this game and its foundation of 'player-driven content'.

1. How much fun could people have in capital fights without the constant threat of a sea of supers being dropped on their fleet?

2. How much fun would it be to have an alliance tournament style arena available to you anytime you log on and only have 30 minutes to play?

3. How much fun could you have if an arena had special insurance that didn't cost you full price to lose a ship in said arena?

4. How much fun would it be to beat the snot out of someone by your skills in overheating/transversal'ing/capacitor managing without them having the crutch of 3 times your numbers/OGB's?

Stop looking at this discussion as a preservation of the game and its 'fundamental concepts' and start looking at it as how to make this video game more fun.

Not today spaghetti.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-07-23 14:35:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Every MMO that has added Arena PVP has ended up with PVP everywhere outside of the arena die off.

Will 0.0 alliances stop wars because of Arena?
Will suicide gankers stop do their job because of Arena?
Maybe FW militians or WH dwellers will stop do their business because of Arena?

People say "Eve is not like any other MMO" Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#56 - 2013-07-23 14:44:17 UTC
Forums Bot wrote:
What you are saying basically is "It's true because I say so".
You're confusing me with you. I'm saying that this is how sandboxes and themeparks work and differ from each other, and I've provided examples of how the former design expresses itself in practical terms.

Quote:
What is not pre-defined in this game?
Everything outside of missions and complexes. Those are the only places where the devs have set up the arena, the objectives, the obstacles, and the script of what's going to happen. For everything else, none of those even exist — only the tools for players to define them. By necessity, this creates an all-PvP environment — one where nothing of any importance or relevance happens or exists without players making it happen, for the only reason that the players want it to happen.

You keep saying that others games provide the same (player-created) dynamic. I'd like to hear of an example.

Quote:
Try what?
Try reading what it is I think rather than make up stuff on your own.

Quote:
I posted a point-by-point counter argument to her/his post.
No. You just said “maybe you haven't played WoW since what you are saying is not true.” No points. No explanation. No argument. Nothing but a blanket statement with no basis or foundation.

So, what was wrong with what Elliavir said?
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#57 - 2013-07-23 14:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorden Ishonen
Sexy Cakes wrote:
I find it funny the way that the concept of 'player-driven content' controls this game.

PvP in this game is rather blobby and unfair most of the time.

Anytime someone comes forward and asks for a CCP provided mechanism to test their skills on a level playing field the 'sandbox' fanboys come out of the woodwork and claim it goes against the premise of this game and its foundation of 'player-driven content'.



Blobbing is simply one strategy: bring so many people to the fight that the opponent is overwhelmed. However, it's not the end-all be-all. Agony and Rooks and Kings are pretty well known for engaging high odds, winning, and then making awesome videos, in the case of RnK. There's also room for the solo crowd, Kil2 (who's also a dev, I'll leave it to you to figure out which one) has footage of an awesome talos roam that he did where he often went against multiple ships at once and came out on top.

How do they do this? Playing smart, taking advantage of ship weaknesses and player mistakes, and spending more time thinking about how to win against numbers than whining about it on the forums or trying to get the developers to hold their hands.

Regarding a new mechanism: given the existance of Sisi, I'd imagine their reaction is more along the lines of "Why do we need this when we already have it?" By the way, there are player-run tournaments out there if you want to play competitively instead of just testing. There is no need for a new mechanic.

Sexy Cakes wrote:
1. How much fun could people have in capital fights without the constant threat of a sea of supers being dropped on their fleet?


Quite a bit, which is why people live in wormholes. People who like (or don't care as much about) supers live in null. There isn't a need for a new mechanic.


Sexy Cakes wrote:
2. How much fun would it be to have an alliance tournament style arena available to you anytime you log on and only have 30 minutes to play?


Welcome to Red vs. Blue? No need for a new mechanic.


Sexy Cakes wrote:
3. How much fun could you have if an arena had special insurance that didn't cost you full price to lose a ship in said arena?


Very little, because then the loss means absolutely nothing. There are other games that offer this, EVE's niche is specifically NOT having this be the case. DEFINITELY no need for that horseshit mechanic.


Sexy Cakes wrote:
4. How much fun would it be to beat the snot out of someone by your skills in overheating/transversal'ing/capacitor managing without them having the crutch of 3 times your numbers/OGB's?

Stop looking at this discussion as a preservation of the game and its 'fundamental concepts' and start looking at it as how to make this video game more fun.


OGBs are on the way out, and as proved above numbers are not the be-all of PvP.

The game is growing every year since it released. It is fun, and the suggestions you and the OP are making would make it less fun. If the people who weren't having fun outnumbered the people who were, the game would hardly be growing.

EVE is unique. Trying to introduce design elements that clash with the base philosophy of the sandbox is not going to get a warm welcome from the people who like their sandbox. Sony learned this the hard way when they listened to twits like you and it cost them a major MMO title. I don't see CCP making the same mistake any time soon.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#58 - 2013-07-23 15:19:45 UTC
Jorden Ishonen wrote:

The game is growing every year since it released. It is fun, and the suggestions you and the OP are making would make it less fun. If more people weren't fun, the game would hardly be growing.

EVE is unique. Trying to introduce design elements that clash with the base philosophy of the sandbox is not going to get a warm welcome from the people who like their sandbox. Sony learned this the hard way when they listened to twits like you and it cost them a major MMO title. I don't see CCP making the same mistake any time soon.


Twits like me? Don't get your jimmies rustled chicken little.

Adding a component like an arena where people are on a level playing field with less serious losses than out in the real EVE universe wouldn't kill the game. Its just an option for people with less playtime for farming isk and going on roams to get some PvP.

To some of your other points:
RnK has max skill pointed pilots who all have minimum requirements to meet to stay in their alliance. Not everyone wants to sign a contract to experience awesome PvP.
Living in a wormhole is just as much of a commitment as joining RnK.
If you join RvB you can't take a break and just carebear it up one night if you want to, you have to leave the corp to leave the war.
Grinding out ISK to lose in PvP is a burden if all you want to do is PvP.
Numbers aren't the end of the discussion in any PvP scenario. The point is having a venue to go fleet vs. fleet on a level playing field is something that you simply can't get in the game right now and it would be a blast to have an easily accessible option that you could log on and kill a few minutes doing.

Not today spaghetti.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#59 - 2013-07-23 15:27:41 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Why do people just not register in current tournaments, or create their own?


You just asked why some online gamers don't do something themselves but rather expect the game makers to do it for them...in a game where one of the more popular activities is clicking on a mining laser then going to watch a movie Big smile

It's just how some people are, in games and IRL.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#60 - 2013-07-23 15:34:31 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Its just an option for people with less playtime for farming isk and going on roams to get some PvP.


If they don't have time to play EVE they should play other games. There are many "MOBA" style games around (World of Tanks comes to mind) and they are perfect for limited time players.

I don't know why people think every game has to be everything to everyone. EVE is a more long term strategic style game and i wouldn't want to see DEVs wasting time on something like this, especially when there is nothing stopping people from organizing their own arenas. My own corp had a corp tournament every month.