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[Odyssey 1.1] Medium Rail, Beam and Artillery rebalance

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#241 - 2013-07-22 12:40:15 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I just saw a very interesting comparison over at The Mittani:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20 (27 after change)
Alpha: 92 (106 after change)
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1 (-1.29 after change)
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21 (26 after change)
Alpha: 91 (114 after change)
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2
CPU: 27.8

Doesn't take tracking into account, yeah, but we're talking sniping ammo here. Mot relevant points bolded out.

Is it me or is there something terribly wrong here?


Oh ma gawd, I can see it now Shocked
If you would have a boat with 5 of these gun, that would mean you can poke someone with an 530hp damage alpha strike at 65km.
This is totally OP, no other ship can do so much damage with one shot at 65km.

Somebody call the goverment, we have a revolution on our hands!!!

Will Concord be able to intervene?


He is pointing at beams having less optimal than rails.

You know and rails now using even more cap.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#242 - 2013-07-22 13:24:01 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


-snip-

He is pointing at beams having less optimal than rails.

You know and rails now using even more cap.


Oh okay but I don't see why this is a problem? So far there is no ship below battleship size that could fit those anyway Evil

Yes CCP Team Balance Boats, no cruiser or battlecruiser sized ship can even fit medium beams so there is no point in fitting them in the first place.
And even if you could, the boats that would benefit from fitting those cannot kite because of agility and speed.

The same applies to railguns. Every tech 1 cruiser will be able to run you over and mock you for your fitting choice in a slow boat.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#243 - 2013-07-22 13:34:29 UTC
Crazy KSK wrote:
858dps rail astarte 1016 with drones @ 20o+27f

Confirming rails are now OP and need to be nerfed

a bit out of whack maybe? maybe its just the Astarte that's broken, which would be odd since no one ever complained about it?


Yeah, the % increase in dps for these changes is way out of whack. I understand what they are "trying" to do here, however They are going at it the wrong way... We will be looking at railgun ships doing more dps than pretty much anything other than blaster ships...

In the end, the increase in dps is FAR FAR FAR too drastic...

Fozzie and rise... You are going through the normal balance dev cycle of doing a few things right followed by a plethora of full ******... Tomb did it, tux did it, now you guys are doing it. Time for new balance devs I say... Ones that are not arrogantly aspie (i'm looking at you fozzie) would be nice.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2013-07-22 14:01:25 UTC
So, since I don't use them, I just didn't realise how **** beams were.

Taking two omen fits:

[Omen, Armour Kite]
Internal Force Field Array I
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Collision Accelerator I

[Omen, Beams lol]
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II

Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M

Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Metastasis Adjuster I

These both have a 26km optimal, that's great, right at the edge of heated point range. Here's the thing, currently the pulse one does 297 dps and the beam does 248. Post patch that'll be 310. Here's the rub, currently the tracking on the pulses is .084 and on the beams it's .060. Post patch that will be worse and of course the pulse one has the option of switching out to high damage high tracking multifreq.

So for 13dps, you're getting 30% less tracking, no close range option and .1 GJ/s less cap use on each gun. Oh and of course you use more cpu which means you have to drop an EANM for an adaptive, losing you ehp.

TLDR lol beams.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#245 - 2013-07-22 14:07:59 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


-snip-

He is pointing at beams having less optimal than rails.

You know and rails now using even more cap.


Oh okay but I don't see why this is a problem? So far there is no ship below battleship size that could fit those anyway Evil

Yes CCP Team Balance Boats, no cruiser or battlecruiser sized ship can even fit medium beams so there is no point in fitting them in the first place.
And even if you could, the boats that would benefit from fitting those cannot kite because of agility and speed.

The same applies to railguns. Every tech 1 cruiser will be able to run you over and mock you for your fitting choice in a slow boat.



Are you insane? Beams are very fittable. Rails fittign bottleneck is CPU,, whiel beams is PG.

I use beams on my zealot with no problems. Also use them on my navy omen.


BEams have shorter range because they have superior tracking and they USED to have higher dps.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#246 - 2013-07-22 14:09:19 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Everything looked fine until you snipped off 15% of the already poor tracking Railguns have.

Are you trying to make Caldari gunboats into things that HAVE to sit at 150 kilometers because of weak tank, caused by PG-hungry turrets, that STILL don't really have enough of a punch to be justified fitting at all?



They reduced tracking on ALLL types. Geeesh peopel are so selective on readin that it amazes me. They are not trying to do ANYTHIGN bad to railboats!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#247 - 2013-07-22 14:11:41 UTC
Max Zerg wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Max Zerg wrote:
Dear Developers,

Capacitor issues are not much discussed in the thread, so your input is really important

-snip-

Please, recommend newbies' cap stable PVE cruisers rail fits considering all of above
Thanks


You should know that weapon system are not balanced around level 2 or 3 missions but pvp. And Lead uses 50% less capacitor to give you a hint.

-snip-


Dear Elitatwo

Thank you for the explanation.
PVP is not much for noobs with zero EWAR skills and very beginner spaceship and gunnery skills
as far as i understand the proposed changes the Gallente newbies are to
1) train Battlecruisers as soon as possible (becaise neigther Myrmidon nor Dominix have Hybrid weapon bonuses)
2) train Projectile Weapons (because of way less capacitor consuption)

in other words CCP tells me - if you want to fly the drone boat DO NOT use cruisers but train BattleCruisers ASAP instead and DO NOT train Hybrid weapons. Same applies to Caldari newbie - learn Missiles and DO NOT train Hybrids
I see a little problem here: proposed changes may be nice for "ALL 5" gurus, but (IMHO!) not much newbie-friendly
of maybe i do not realize anything right and "new" rails are OK for beginners. I protest that much hoping to be heard and hoping my questions to be answered


PVP is for ANY player with a 5 days old character. No You do nto need lots of ewar skills. You need a frigate with t1 web and point and a MWD or AB.


Stop whinning. Rails have FAR HIGHER dps than arties. Using capacitor is a MINUSCLE price for that. Not only that... your gallente boats have more base capacitor than minmatar ones!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#248 - 2013-07-22 14:13:49 UTC
Akturous wrote:
So, since I don't use them, I just didn't realise how **** beams were.

Taking two omen fits:

[Omen, Armour Kite]
Internal Force Field Array I
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Collision Accelerator I

[Omen, Beams lol]
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II

Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M

Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Metastasis Adjuster I

These both have a 26km optimal, that's great, right at the edge of heated point range. Here's the thing, currently the pulse one does 297 dps and the beam does 248. Post patch that'll be 310. Here's the rub, currently the tracking on the pulses is .084 and on the beams it's .060. Post patch that will be worse and of course the pulse one has the option of switching out to high damage high tracking multifreq.

So for 13dps, you're getting 30% less tracking, no close range option and .1 GJ/s less cap use on each gun. Oh and of course you use more cpu which means you have to drop an EANM for an adaptive, losing you ehp.

TLDR lol beams.


But you selectively use T1 ammo on the beams one and t2 on the pulse one..


TRY AGAIN!! PLot a graph for all their ammos and you will see why there are times where beams are better.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#249 - 2013-07-22 15:56:48 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

But you selectively use T1 ammo on the beams one and t2 on the pulse one..


TRY AGAIN!! PLot a graph for all their ammos and you will see why there are times where beams are better.


Because I was selecting the beam ammo which gave the same range as the scorch in the pulses. If you can't understand what I did there and why the beams should dominate at mid range in either tracking or damage, then just biomass.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#250 - 2013-07-22 15:58:26 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


BEams have.... superior tracking


Proof you have NFI.


Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Kururugi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#251 - 2013-07-22 21:15:43 UTC
Please do not forget about Quad Light Beam.
Syntheos
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#252 - 2013-07-23 00:02:23 UTC
Its hard enough to hit things with artillery as it is decreasing the amount of time it takes will give you a slightly better chance of hitting but you'll probably just end up running out of ammo much quicker than before. not that a 5 percent reduction is that big of a deal but it can eventually become just that.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#253 - 2013-07-23 00:18:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Syntheos wrote:
Its hard enough to hit things with artillery as it is decreasing the amount of time it takes will give you a slightly better chance of hitting but you'll probably just end up running out of ammo much quicker than before. not that a 5 percent reduction is that big of a deal but it can eventually become just that.



Ho indeed my instacane will indeed suffer tons from this because artillery was really really bad amirite? Lol

By the way, no one ever sees Arty Tornados Arty instacanes Arty lokis/munins Arty Cynabals or even Arty Maelstroms/Tempests...

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#254 - 2013-07-23 05:58:53 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Syntheos wrote:
Its hard enough to hit things with artillery as it is decreasing the amount of time it takes will give you a slightly better chance of hitting but you'll probably just end up running out of ammo much quicker than before. not that a 5 percent reduction is that big of a deal but it can eventually become just that.



Ho indeed my instacane will indeed suffer tons from this because artillery was really really bad amirite? Lol

By the way, no one ever sees Arty Tornados Arty instacanes Arty lokis/munins Arty Cynabals or even Arty Maelstroms/Tempests...


You forgot about Arty Abaddons.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#255 - 2013-07-23 11:01:26 UTC
Going back to Rise's OP about the tracking...

a) it is laughable that you compare a blaster Talos to a 250mm rail Deimos in terms of the tracking. Yes, technically you will hit more often with a Deimos with two Tracking Enhancers. It still doesn't make it all equal in terms of DPS and effectiveness.

I am yet to see what kind of fit you have with a Deimos that will use 2 x TE's. I am guessing it is supposed to be a sheimos now it has 4 mids? Dissy, MWD, LSE, and either a cap booster or invul. What is the tank going to be on a shield-fit Deimos? 25K? 30K? With only two rig slots I'm guessing we drop in an EM rig and an extender rig. Lows, 2 x TE's, 2 Magstabs, 1 RCU for fitting, and a DCU. DPS? 400? 600?

Or, a blaster Talos. Sure it nominally gets 20% less on-target DPS but it starts at 1200 and competes with 400-600. You might lose 20% but you will still be ahead on ISK, tank and spank.

You are also suffering, as everyone says, 15% more cap use. So you are looking at possibly 1.5 to 2 minutes cap, tops (currently blaster Deimos is 4 to 4.5).

I remain underwhelmed. I would still choose the Talos.

b) Medium arty, rails and beams are already quite problematic in small deployments against small ships. The example cited, being a Talwar flying with a MWD in a corkscrew, is an interesting choice. The problem that rail, arty and beam ships will face against frigates is that already if you get within too short a range and get orbited, it's all over bar the kicking and screaming. Now you are 15% more up the creek. Kite fits don't fit webs...so why would you like a 15% tracking nerf and optimals and falloffs which don't really see you fighting well outside of 20km?

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Linistitul
Gea'Vii Enterprises
#256 - 2013-07-23 11:28:29 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Medium Rails (all sizes and metas):
-15% Tracking Speed


Wasn't tracking speed & damage that plagued rails for years? You just nerfed poor Fonzie.
Maximilian Akora
It's just business.
#257 - 2013-07-23 12:03:27 UTC
Akturous wrote:
So, since I don't use them, I just didn't realise how **** beams were.

Taking two omen fits:

[Omen, Armour Kite]
Internal Force Field Array I
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Collision Accelerator I

[Omen, Beams lol]
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II

Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Xray M

Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Energy Metastasis Adjuster I

These both have a 26km optimal, that's great, right at the edge of heated point range. Here's the thing, currently the pulse one does 297 dps and the beam does 248. Post patch that'll be 310. Here's the rub, currently the tracking on the pulses is .084 and on the beams it's .060. Post patch that will be worse and of course the pulse one has the option of switching out to high damage high tracking multifreq.

So for 13dps, you're getting 30% less tracking, no close range option and .1 GJ/s less cap use on each gun. Oh and of course you use more cpu which means you have to drop an EANM for an adaptive, losing you ehp.

TLDR lol beams.


Short range T2 ammo for long range weapons give extra tracking, Gleam in this case.
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#258 - 2013-07-23 12:57:09 UTC
Maximilian Akora wrote:
Akturous wrote:
snip


Short range T2 ammo for long range weapons give extra tracking, Gleam in this case.


Gleam would leave the beams with (I don't have EFT on hand...) about 9km Optimal.
lone wolfman
Doomheim
#259 - 2013-07-23 13:11:10 UTC  |  Edited by: lone wolfman
What is the point of these changes. RoF and Dps is being increased, but you are actually taking the tracking out. rails already struggle to hit targets and with these changes they will just miss all. this not a buff, its a nerf.

tracking bonus would have helped more than the dpS multiplier. that additional DPS is of no use if the gunns cannot track.


i think i just wasted days training for long range weapons. we are trying to improve the things not make them useless.

regards
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#260 - 2013-07-23 13:20:20 UTC
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
Maximilian Akora wrote:
Akturous wrote:
snip


Short range T2 ammo for long range weapons give extra tracking, Gleam in this case.


Gleam would leave the beams with (I don't have EFT on hand...) about 9km Optimal.


this ^

And javelin ammo on railguns have a tracking bonus but in reality a number with a low value like 0.001 that gets a tracking bonus of 75% is still a low value.

Rails and beams need a tracking buff, not a nerf.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever