These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey 1.1] Medium Rail, Beam and Artillery rebalance

First post First post First post
Author
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#281 - 2013-07-24 09:00:31 UTC
The omen really is a piece of ****..

After the changes with beam lasers you can get decent dps if you can settle for.

Using one of your very valuable three mid slots for a cap booster.

Fitting a 10 mill ACR

Only marginally outperforming a scorch omen in raw dps numbers (While losing in actual applied dps)

Ohh and then there is the tank. You can get about 14k ehp out of it really... You can't use a big plate because of speed/fittings, you can't use buffer/res armor rigs because it will slow you down too much and you can't active tank it because you don't have the fittings or cap for it.

Honestly why does it seem like all amarr laser boats have several different features that are literally working against each other?

I mean for fucks sake it has a bonus for its capacitor.. And then a ******* bonus that increases its cap use.. what the actual ****?

I think pretty much the only sub BS Amarr laser hull that isn't a complete disaster is the navy aug because it actually has a slot layout that compliments lasers and armor tanking instead of punishing it. Seriously the whole sub BS amarr laser line needs a complete overhaul. The problem isn't just lasers, its poorly designed ships.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#282 - 2013-07-24 10:36:05 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Aplier Shivra wrote:
I know there are many other factors to consider, and my head is going through them faster than I can type them. I do feel like this change for beams is a step in a good direction, but heavy-handed in the implementation. Short range weapons should not need to use to T2 ammo to hope of matching long range's dps against anything other than close, fast frigs.

You underestimate just how significant tracking can be.

Taking a Zealot for example. With current beams (before the tracking nerf) - if it is moving at base speed ~250m/s, flying with transversal to a stationary zealot and firing with multifrequency it will not be getting clean hits until it's ~15km away. Any closer and it loses a huge amount of dps.

Even if paper dps is the same, Pulse lasers will still definitely be used on brawling setups. This change is going to put some variation into the weapon fitting which is going to be awesome!

You won't need to worry about every laser ship you encounter once these changes hit being ranged beam fit. In the event you find people like this, get up close and they won't hit you :)



Fit TE+TC script OP range and hit with pulses at beams range with better tracking and alpha/dps

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#283 - 2013-07-24 15:41:23 UTC
Omens are fine. Lrn2pvp

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Gnoshia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#284 - 2013-07-24 16:21:24 UTC
lone wolfman wrote:
also i do not know why people are worried about the HM being left behind. with these changes i think they are getting buffed. HM will still hit the target while rails/arty/beam won't.



As someone has already pointed out, HMLs aren't where they should be. Most people don't use them in either PvP or PvE.

They got nerfed to heavily me thinks.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#285 - 2013-07-24 16:39:52 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Omens are fine. Lrn2pvp



If by fine you mean worse at its given job than all other cruisers, sure.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#286 - 2013-07-24 23:24:42 UTC
Gnoshia wrote:
lone wolfman wrote:
also i do not know why people are worried about the HM being left behind. with these changes i think they are getting buffed. HM will still hit the target while rails/arty/beam won't.



As someone has already pointed out, HMLs aren't where they should be. Most people don't use them in either PvP or PvE.

They got nerfed to heavily me thinks.



Thing is most dudes will argue medium turrets are worst, and they're right but with a smaller distinction: Medium LR atm are total crap, HM's just crappy but can compete with those but after buffs? no way in hell I'm about to see HM's get arty alpha (over 6K) AND distance (140km with RF TS arty cane is easy to achieve)
HM's will need at least -15% rof to catch medium LR turrets or 20% dmg increase for a start then tweak if needed.

Also: tracking on hybrids thrown away is such a silly idea...

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Rikimaru Ichikawa
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#287 - 2013-07-25 00:14:38 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
What about optimal on Beams? They have the same optimal as Arty, but arty get more falloff. And Arty have volley advantage.

All beams need an optimal buff imo. You could take away a little something to compensate if you must (tracking, dps, whatever) but right now they are the worst at range of all long range weapon platforms. Which makes no sense as they are a friggin beam of light in a vacuum.What?

Agreed.
Akimo Heth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#288 - 2013-07-25 00:43:10 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Gnoshia wrote:
lone wolfman wrote:
also i do not know why people are worried about the HM being left behind. with these changes i think they are getting buffed. HM will still hit the target while rails/arty/beam won't.



As someone has already pointed out, HMLs aren't where they should be. Most people don't use them in either PvP or PvE.

They got nerfed to heavily me thinks.



Thing is most dudes will argue medium turrets are worst, and they're right but with a smaller distinction: Medium LR atm are total crap, HM's just crappy but can compete with those but after buffs? no way in hell I'm about to see HM's get arty alpha (over 6K) AND distance (140km with RF TS arty cane is easy to achieve)
HM's will need at least -15% rof to catch medium LR turrets or 20% dmg increase for a start then tweak if needed.

Also: tracking on hybrids thrown away is such a silly idea...


Saying HM's shouldn't get at least a small piece of this overall buff is like saying they're currently 30+% better (the size of the rail buff) than the other LR weapons. They're not as useless as other LR medium weapons but 30+% better? No way.
Oberus MacKenzie
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#289 - 2013-07-25 01:11:23 UTC
Great stat balances, but in my honest opinion the tracking penalty on long range turret ammo is still a problem. Maybe 50% or 60% instead. A 75% tracking penalty makes it so you can't ever track frigates, even from max range.

I like these changes but they really make heavy missiles obsolete. Nobody uses them right now because of how absolutely terrible they became after the nerf, and these changes will make them even worse. The list of caldari ships that are worth using in PvP is extremely short and only getting shorter. ECM got a huge kick in the teeth, the drake is practically useless now, the tengu got neutered and caldari HACs aren't getting the love they need to be functional. If I could get the skillpoints refunded that I spent on caldari, missiles and ECM I would do it in a heartbeat. They are becoming more and more worthless with every patch.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#290 - 2013-07-25 01:22:59 UTC
Oberus MacKenzie wrote:
Great stat balances, but in my honest opinion the tracking penalty on long range turret ammo is still a problem. Maybe 50% or 60% instead. A 75% tracking penalty makes it so you can't ever track frigates, even from max range.

I like these changes but they really make heavy missiles obsolete. Nobody uses them right now because of how absolutely terrible they became after the nerf, and these changes will make them even worse. The list of caldari ships that are worth using in PvP is extremely short and only getting shorter. ECM got a huge kick in the teeth, the drake is practically useless now, the tengu got neutered and caldari HACs aren't getting the love they need to be functional. If I could get the skillpoints refunded that I spent on caldari, missiles and ECM I would do it in a heartbeat. They are becoming more and more worthless with every patch.




More like double the penalty on short range (gun) ammo.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#291 - 2013-07-25 10:18:15 UTC
Akimo Heth wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Gnoshia wrote:
lone wolfman wrote:
also i do not know why people are worried about the HM being left behind. with these changes i think they are getting buffed. HM will still hit the target while rails/arty/beam won't.



As someone has already pointed out, HMLs aren't where they should be. Most people don't use them in either PvP or PvE.

They got nerfed to heavily me thinks.



Thing is most dudes will argue medium turrets are worst, and they're right but with a smaller distinction: Medium LR atm are total crap, HM's just crappy but can compete with those but after buffs? no way in hell I'm about to see HM's get arty alpha (over 6K) AND distance (140km with RF TS arty cane is easy to achieve)
HM's will need at least -15% rof to catch medium LR turrets or 20% dmg increase for a start then tweak if needed.

Also: tracking on hybrids thrown away is such a silly idea...


Saying HM's shouldn't get at least a small piece of this overall buff is like saying they're currently 30+% better (the size of the rail buff) than the other LR weapons. They're not as useless as other LR medium weapons but 30+% better? No way.



Let me spell it again, I'm not English native so you'll excuse my bad English.

Currently HM's are absolutely worthless, I'm not saying or comparing them to medium turrets other than arty because those are the only ones actually working rather well, so, at current state HM's are indeed absolutely crap.

Now if you want to compare current HM's with current rails/beam to say those are ok then you're doing it wrong all down the hill, if you want to see how bad a weapon system is you don't compare it with the truly horrible ones but with the only one worth :arties: and you will quickly figure out HM's are indeed nerf to hell and only then yes, you can get rails and beam to the ring and figure out how much of a bad joke those are.


removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#292 - 2013-07-25 15:12:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
I really dislike the tracking-malus on those weaponsystems. Their ranges are short enough to be - unless shieldtanked with TEs - operating at the end of your optimal anyways to compensate for tracking. I really doubt adding tracking malus across the field will add to their effective dps outside of a fleet/larger gang scenario that provides hard tackle in the supportwing.

Especially for a minority of artillerykiters, that is rather mean.




Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Omens are fine. Lrn2pvp



If by fine you mean worse at its given job than all other cruisers, sure.


That's surprising. I always thought of the omen as the third great T1 Cruiser, settling behind the Vexor, followed by the caracal, followed by the Omen, followed by the Thorax. It's maybe cause I never flew it armortanked. Guess that way, it would be crap.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2013-07-25 20:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Erutpar Ambient
What I would like to see is ammo changes for medium weapons.
I want to see highest damage ammo give no range modifications, instead energy and tracking(or gun sig since its a bigger modifier?) penalties. This way your optimal rage on your gun is the best damage, but as ships get closer you lose the ability to project damage on them.

Then your ship will be a long range ship instead of multiple range damage tiers. Just like it should be :)

Edit: correction, all long range guns.
Ronny Hugo
Cyno Inc. Reactions
Goonswarm Federation
#294 - 2013-07-25 21:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ronny Hugo
+1. @ original post.
The T2 ammo needs a revamp though, having just 2 for each weapon seems backwards, why not have T2 ammo as something even better than each of the normal T1 ammos (and better than faction T1, but same damage, not counting T2 ammo skill)?
So T2 gamma crystals, T2 multifrequency etc.
As a suggestion to how the T2 could be better; better cap bonuses would do nicely for T2 beam and pulse crystals. But a clean-up in the amount of turrets would be nice, there are too many tier-ish options. One should do one thing best, another should do another thing best. So Tachyons should be medium to long range damage dealers, another beam should be medium to long-range cap-stable damage dealer, another beam should be short-medium range damage dealers (then with more damage than tachyons, but the same tracking as tachyons), etc. Or different ones (these are just suggestions).
PS: Tachyons are epic weapons as is, but the ammo cap bonuses mean you can realistically only fight at ranges around 100km with large tachyons, all other ranges mean you can't cycle the gun enough times to kill anything. So a slight adjustment of the cap bonuses to reflect beam and pulse use would be nice (beams get less cap use at long to medium range, pulse get less cap use from medium to short range). A fun idea I wonder if it would work, is if it would be somehow possible to have cap penalties on pulses on long ranges, and cap penalties on beams on short ranges, but then have a more flat distribution of damage on all ranges. Don't know what the equivalent bonus for projectiles and hybrids would be though. At least an idea to store for later.
Veng3ance
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#295 - 2013-07-26 03:53:49 UTC
Great changes all around! Thx CCP!
Luscius Uta
#296 - 2013-07-26 08:40:22 UTC
Tracking nerf on Rails is pretty big (even though it can be compensated by replacing falloff bonus on all ships that have it with a tracking bonus, but I don't expect that to happen), and +15% RoF increase seems nice only until you realize that Hybrids are the only weapon system consuming both cap and ammo. I would remove both of those changes but increase damage bonus to 20 or 25%.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#297 - 2013-07-26 09:45:27 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Tracking nerf on Rails is pretty big (even though it can be compensated by replacing falloff bonus on all ships that have it with a tracking bonus, but I don't expect that to happen), and +15% RoF increase seems nice only until you realize that Hybrids are the only weapon system consuming both cap and ammo. I would remove both of those changes but increase damage bonus to 20 or 25%.



Mandatory cap booster+cargo full of ammo/charges and eventually cap booster/ammo truck, imho this might be fun for small engagements and yadaya but as soon as you have to stay on the field this brings nothing fun but tedious, cap chain from logistics ships already overpowered or have dedicated ones for that on top of cap booster management etc, how can someone thing this is fun gaming or adds anything interesting?

It's nothing but tedious and boring, logistics pain and uninteresting game play.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#298 - 2013-07-26 09:52:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
I'm wondering what is the point of using medium rails on a ship that has a tracking bonus when your guns tracking penalty is working against you?

It actually forces blasters only on to gallente hulls and rails only on caldari, also a rof increase is a massive cap tax. Don't forget tracking penalties are actually a stealth nerf to dps over range as there is a big difference to paper range and actual range as there is with paper dps and actual dps.

I actually thought that medium rails were working really well and have found them to be excellent weapons if you use the right ammo at the right range.

Also heavy missiles should be buffed as they had their dps lowered by 10% last year to match medium guns now with a buff to the afore mentioned medium guns dps and rate of fire it's high time the HM nerf was reversed.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Akimo Heth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#299 - 2013-07-26 13:25:50 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Tracking nerf on Rails is pretty big (even though it can be compensated by replacing falloff bonus on all ships that have it with a tracking bonus, but I don't expect that to happen), and +15% RoF increase seems nice only until you realize that Hybrids are the only weapon system consuming both cap and ammo. I would remove both of those changes but increase damage bonus to 20 or 25%.


Technically lasers do too, nobody uses T1 crystals.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#300 - 2013-07-26 19:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Scuzzy Logic
Akimo Heth wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
Tracking nerf on Rails is pretty big (even though it can be compensated by replacing falloff bonus on all ships that have it with a tracking bonus, but I don't expect that to happen), and +15% RoF increase seems nice only until you realize that Hybrids are the only weapon system consuming both cap and ammo. I would remove both of those changes but increase damage bonus to 20 or 25%.


Technically lasers do too, nobody uses T1 crystals.


The thing is, Scorch is just plain OP. I have no clue how to fix it without making it Conflagration clone, but as long as that Crystal allows me to shoot at beam ranges, I'm going to fit pulses.

Now that I think about it, does anyone use medium or small gleam? I've only ever used it for POS shooting...