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Silver Getsuga

Liber Primus

Likes received: 4

#121 - 2013-07-18 22:31:37 UTC | Edited by: ISD Ezwal

Arkon Olacar wrote:

Akimo Heth wrote:

mynnna wrote:

Heavy Missiles were previously so powerful because there was no short range medium missile weapon system. The introduction of HAMs changed that, but they were bad and heavy missiles still too good, thus the combo buff/nerf to distinguish them from each other more.

HMs retain the classic missile advantages over guns of being "immune" to tracking (you can't get an advantage over them by simply getting in close) and static damage profile (I do the same DPS at 0km as at 60km). I'll need to dig into numbers once someone gets EFT updated, but HMs are probably still just fine in comparison to the new long range guns for those reasons.

I disagree, if you plug in current TQ numbers into EFT you'll see that HML ships are already less dps than an equivalent beam-fitted ship and to a lesser extent rail-fitted. For example, the harbinger navy issue and drake have similar dps bonuses and both fit 6 turret/launchers so I plugged them into EFT. With all lvl 5's, 4 heat sinks/bcs, and T2 weapons/ammo, and no implants I'm getting 610 dps for the harbinger and 508 for the drake. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I would argue that the advantages you cite are already baked into the current TQ numbers, now with a 20% buff beams/rails/arties will pull even further ahead.

You are wrong.*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

For a start, good luck fitting 4 BCSs on a navy drake and still fitting a tank. But even if you did, you are looking at 362 dps at 94km with faction, 424 dps at 71km with fury. For a navy harbinger, you are looking at 522dps at 23km with scorch, 239 dps at 48km with faction radio and beams, 332 dps at 54km with aurora. Either way, both your dps and your max range is superior with hml, and you don't have to account for tracking.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Edit: You were talking about normal drake not navy drake. For the standard drake, you are looking at 407 dps at 63km with faction, and 478 dps at 47km with fury. This of course locks you into kinetic damage, other damage types are worse. Faction still does more dps at a longer range than the longest ranged beam ammo, and fury does twice the dps of the ammo type that operates at the same max range.

tl:dr heavy missiles are fine, *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Missiles don't have to account for tracking yes. And guns don't need to account for sig size (as far as I know, I'm new to the game). Also tracking is irrelevant the moment rats start to chase you at a straight line when you out of their optimal range. Not saying HM are weak, *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

MeBiatch

GRR GOONS

Likes received: 2,108

#122 - 2013-07-18 22:49:27 UTC

Bagehi wrote:

I'm Down wrote:

I really don't understand why you guys do not attack the Tracking formula for the much larger problem of no scaling at range.

Because changing numbers in the database is a tweak. Changing the tracking formula is a massive overhaul. Same reason for not overhauling POSes and any number of other "why don't you JUST.." changes.

is the tracking formula that hard coded? i know parts of it have been added over the years and the missile one has been overhauled more then once...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

elitatwo

Zansha Expansion

Likes received: 1,739

#123 - 2013-07-18 23:01:05 UTC

I need to apologize in advance for so very rude comments I won't hold back any more. I am very sorry!

For the love of any gods out there, someone shut those people and their dps babbeling up-

And for all people that don't know the difference between short and long range weapons, here is a hint:

- Yo need to stay as far away as you can and deal much much hurt on ze boat you want to make booom so they gez no chance to close in and killz yo.
- Missiles don't haz alpha, just volleys after volley
- Any rof bonus to artilleries just screams OP
- Artillery iz alpha gun, noes deeps gun

And now a little game with numbers.

Let's take ma Moa with ze 250mm t2 railguns and lets look at ze current stats with ze level V skills an no implant ****:
- duration (mean rate of fire) 3.574 seconds
- optimal range with tech 1 antimatter M 18km
- falloff 15km
- tracking 0,03019 (radians)
- 187,2 powergrid
- 31,5 cpu

Now let's apply the proosed buff to ze numbers:
- duration (means rate of fire) 3.5734s - 15% (.53601) = 3,03739 seconds

With smaller guns the number even decreases, so the lower you get the lower the duration decrease. I make an educated guess and say it will hardly hurt the capacitor much.

Now let's have a look of the alpha damage of ma Moa with a full rack of 250mm rails.

5x 250mm loaded with tech1 antimatter M deals 1071hp damage
Applying 15% damage to them would make 1.231,65hp alpha.

So chill people, don't ever look at some percentages of a value and judge right away.

Now another experiment with a Zealot (pun implied....) and tech2 heavy beam lasers.

For all that people screaming op, just stop posting

Okay back to the Zealot and heavy pulse laser + 2 heat sinks
5x tech2 heavy beam lasers with tech1 multifrequency deal an insane amount of 681hp alpha damage Shocked

oh ma gawd...
Taking 681 + 25% makes 851,25hp alpha damage (still using multifrequncy)

So again chill people!!

I can see this going in the right direction and maybe we could tone the powergrid demands for heavy beam lasers somewhat down would go a long way.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Dinsdale Pirannha

Pirannha Corp

Likes received: 3,519

#124 - 2013-07-18 23:19:31 UTC

Sarkelias Anophius wrote:

Rough estimate based on previous fittings puts the Deimos at a healthy 500+ dps @ 16+40ish, rail Proteus at > 700dps @ 22+29. All figures depend on tracking/range mods and my memory, of course. I can't be bothered to use beams so I dunno about those.

Toss the numbers for the Proteus out the door.
I figured out the same numbers until I realized I forgot that CCP plans on destroying the T3 ships, so no way those numbers will exist for more than a flicker of game time.

Silver Getsuga

Liber Primus

Likes received: 4

#125 - 2013-07-18 23:26:51 UTC

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Sarkelias Anophius wrote:

Can't decide what to level next T3 cruisers or battleships. T3 cruisers now seem like risky time investment.

Hotel Culiacan 100
Bishop Xsi Hotel Culiacan Likes received: 100	#126 - 2013-07-19 00:31:55 UTC So where do I get the new EFT data files?

210
Perihelion Olenard Likes received: 210	#127 - 2013-07-19 01:35:10 UTC I definitely like this. I want to try a rail ferox.

Dinsdale Pirannha

Pirannha Corp

Likes received: 3,519

#128 - 2013-07-19 01:35:32 UTC

Silver Getsuga wrote:

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Sarkelias Anophius wrote:

Can't decide what to level next T3 cruisers or battleships. T3 cruisers now seem like risky time investment.

Go with the BS's. You have a known quantity there.

masternerdguy

Doomheim

Likes received: 1,806

#129 - 2013-07-19 01:44:58 UTC | Edited by: masternerdguy

Marcel Devereux wrote:

Let's go over the rails checklist.

Shield ships: Tank - check, Speed - check, Range - check, Tracking - check, DPS - check. Done ship it!

Armor ships: Tank - not if you want to fit the guns, Speed - not if you want a tank, Range - checkish, Tracking - not if you want range, DPS - not if you want that tank, but then again if you wanted a tank you can't fit the guns. Ship it? Sure why not. CCP Rise pities the fool that flies armor.

When are we going to see Armor 2.0?

Buffer armor tank ships are grossly stronger than their shield tanked counterparts in most pvp situations that don't involve kiting.

It's because buffer shield tanking typically makes your sig radius gigantic causing you to absorb huge amounts of extra damage, requires mid slots which can no longer be used for tackle / EWAR / etc, and still gives you less EHP than your armor counterpart.

Armor tanking has a low sig radius, mitigating lots of damage, and has mid slots free for utility stuff (not to mention the wide variety of tough armor tanked ships with powerful scram and web bonuses), and still has higher EHP than the shield tanking counterpart.

And you do plenty of damage. Not that damage matters really, in fleets of 500 vs 500 dps is often pretty irrelevant.

When ravens are consistently owning megas with their epic tank, speed, and dps, then we can talk about buffing armor ships more. When nullsec alliances stop using AHACs because they're getting owned by shield HACs, then we can talk some more.

Armor is currently OP, if anything. Sorry your specific fitting is bad, but the ships are excellent.

Things are only impossible until they are not.

Perkone Caldari State 2
James Potkukelkka Perkone Caldari State Likes received: 2	#130 - 2013-07-19 07:22:30 UTC 1 So the damage buff works against rats too? Does the rats using rails do more damage too?

Tobias Hareka

Republic Military School

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 117

#131 - 2013-07-19 07:26:52 UTC

Silver Getsuga wrote:

Arkon Olacar wrote:

Akimo Heth wrote:

mynnna wrote:

...

You are wrong. Your numbers are about as disjointed from reality as mittens 'war updates'.

For a start, good luck fitting 4 BCSs on a navy drake and still fitting a tank. But even if you did, you are looking at 362 dps at 94km with faction, 424 dps at 71km with fury. For a navy harbinger, you are looking at 522dps at 23km with scorch, 239 dps at 48km with faction radio and beams, 332 dps at 54km with aurora. Either way, both your dps and your max range is superior with hml, and you don't have to account for tracking.

This is probably one of these cases where the great unwashed of Eve hear pubbie mcmissionrunner bitching about their nerfed drake (still), and actually believe them when they make great sweeping claims on the dps and range of heavy missiles that have no relation to actual facts.

Edit: You were talking about normal drake not navy drake. For the standard drake, you are looking at 407 dps at 63km with faction, and 478 dps at 47km with fury. This of course locks you into kinetic damage, other damage types are worse. Faction still does more dps at a longer range than the longest ranged beam ammo, and fury does twice the dps of the ammo type that operates at the same max range.

tl:dr heavy missiles are fine, shut up.

Watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqc

It will open your eyes.

Jacob Holland

Weyland-Vulcan Industries

Likes received: 462

#132 - 2013-07-19 08:04:52 UTC

CCP Rise wrote:

Medium Rails (all sizes and metas):
+15% Rate of Fire
+15% Damage Multiplier
-15% Tracking Speed

Corresponing cap use reduction?

At present an Omen with Heavy Beams will burn about 10.5 GJ per shot while a Thorax with 250mm Rails burns 10. (According to the values listed in the EVElopedia). The base ROF on the two turrets is the same 6s (the Omen than has an ROF bonus of course).
The ROF gain of new rails puts a significant, additional cap pressure on the ships using them - pushing them closer to Lasers with ammo use...

Silver Getsuga

Liber Primus

Likes received: 4

#133 - 2013-07-19 08:08:34 UTC

Tobias Hareka wrote:

Silver Getsuga wrote:

Watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqc

It will open your eyes.

Ah yes, I see, thank you. Didn't know that guns tracking is affected by sig size. But still NPC frigates approach you in a straight line, aren't they?

Veshta Yoshida

PIE Inc.

Khimi Harar

Likes received: 917

#134 - 2013-07-19 09:01:50 UTC

CCP Rise wrote:

One of the discussions we had with the CSM...

And they didn't question the viability of bringing medium weapons against normal fleets that are not comprised of a single Talwar doing a Benny Hill or the fact that you used a Talwar with its MWD sig reduction in the first place?

Were they there at all? Asleep perhaps? Drunk? Lol

Powercreep is irrelevant as you are free to say no when (not if, players are greedy!) cries go out to boost large over the top.

Little Dragon Khamez

Guardians of the Underworld

Likes received: 1,552

#135 - 2013-07-19 09:12:15 UTC | Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez

Jacob Holland wrote:

CCP Rise wrote:

Medium Rails (all sizes and metas):
+15% Rate of Fire
+15% Damage Multiplier
-15% Tracking Speed

Welcome to the world of the Amarr where you pay heavily for the tiniest advantage which turns out not to be an advantage at all.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Tobias Hareka

Republic Military School

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 117

#136 - 2013-07-19 09:57:56 UTC

Silver Getsuga wrote:

Tobias Hareka wrote:

Silver Getsuga wrote:

Watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqc

It will open your eyes.

Ah yes, I see, thank you. Didn't know that guns tracking is affected by sig size. But still NPC frigates approach you in a straight line, aren't they?

Yes, because AI in this game is programmed to do that. That's exactly same thing what happens every time you hit orbit button if you have to approach.

I still don't see how missiles are broken.

REUNI0N Against ALL Authorities 43
E'lyna Mis Dimaloun REUNI0N Against ALL Authorities Likes received: 43	#137 - 2013-07-19 10:33:49 UTC CCP #1: so, no one uses medium rails/beams. We can fix the tracking formula to account for signature radius more correctly, so that people will have a reason to fit them. CCP #2: too much work. Just buff the DPS. CCP #1: maybe we should instead look at fitting requirements, cap usage, tech 2 ammo...? CCP #2: BUFF THE DPS IT WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING.

Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 2,148
Kagura Nikon Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic Likes received: 2,148	#138 - 2013-07-19 10:41:09 UTC Harvey James wrote: mmkay so why are all the comparisons ignoring T2 ammo? ..... who uses antimatter on rails? .. anyone? T2 ammo needs a buff on long range guns .. -75% range makes it unusable... Stil works pretty well when enemy Forced you into close range. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#139 - 2013-07-19 10:43:58 UTC

Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

Windman Advena wrote:

Rails and Beams DPS will be about 40% better then Artillery DPS.
Give Artillery 20% RoF bonus. Artillery DPS will be still 25% less then Beam or Rails DPS

When you get 6k alpha out of a T2 arty fit you get about 2.5 from a dps fit with other guns and alpha > to DPS everyday, if you can't kill it with a single volley bring more arties. Those are already the reason why beams and rails are total crap atm.

Just shut up please. Alpha is NOT > DPS every day. Alpha is > DPS only if ALpha is high enough to kill the enemy. When you are fightign larger ships.. DPS >>>>> ALPHA.

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Viziam Amarr Empire 3
Mur'zad Viziam Amarr Empire Likes received: 3	#140 - 2013-07-19 11:03:24 UTC Would like to see some form of reduction in the cap usage of lasers too.. Try fitting any beam ship and not run into cap issues.