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[Odyssey 1.1] Medium Rail, Beam and Artillery rebalance

First post First post First post
Author
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2013-07-19 11:10:26 UTC
Mur'zad wrote:
Would like to see some form of reduction in the cap usage of lasers too.. Try fitting any beam ship and not run into cap issues.



Well I do not have cap issues with my Zealot or my Legion. That does not mean I never get low on cap, just that when I get there I made reasonable work from that cap.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Silver Getsuga
Liber Primus
#142 - 2013-07-19 11:15:26 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Silver Getsuga wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Silver Getsuga wrote:


Missiles don't have to account for tracking yes. And guns don't need to account for sig size (as far as I know, I'm new to the game). Also tracking is irrelevant the moment rats start to chase you at a straight line when you out of their optimal range. Not saying HM are weak, just pointing out you're mittaning your facts too.


Watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqc

It will open your eyes.


Ah yes, I see, thank you. Didn't know that guns tracking is affected by sig size. But still NPC frigates approach you in a straight line, aren't they?


Yes, because AI in this game is programmed to do that. That's exactly same thing what happens every time you hit orbit button if you have to approach.

I still don't see how missiles are broken.


Not saying they're. But they look weak in particular case. Low sig (up to and including cruisers) fast ( >500 m/s) ships that swarm L3s. On paper mid-to-long range turrets on a kiting ship look better than heavy missiles.

Even with precision missiles. _Right now_ precision missiles on slow (<300 m/s) targets look about the same as rails. Post buff rails will do ~33% better. Range wise rails do better too.

That makes Drake look bad. It'll not be effective in L3s (due to dps) and L4s (due to tank/damage trade off). Maybe some kind of damage application bonus would do in theory (instead of range bonus, since drake have enough tank for L3s). Or players can adapt with HAMs.

But you don't have to believe me. Play with DPS windows in EFT. I could be wrong.
Urkhan Law
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#143 - 2013-07-19 11:21:12 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Windman Advena wrote:
Rails and Beams DPS will be about 40% better then Artillery DPS.

When you get 6k alpha out of a T2 arty fit you get about 2.5 from a dps fit with other guns and alpha > to DPS everyday

When you are fightign larger ships.. DPS >>>>> ALPHA.


How medium arties are used at the moment, Lokis? Hurricanes?
Aren't they been used in a sort of "niche" combat only (certain fleet types in certain conditions) ?

It's an honest question, I only fly frigs (and badly), I really don't know the current application/meta of medium arties.
If one day I decide to upgrade to cruisers (solo - small gang low sec roamer), I really can't see why should I use them.
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Goonswarm Federation
#144 - 2013-07-19 11:21:59 UTC
WHOA

Just noticed that new medium rails tracking is gonna be worse than new medium artillery tracking
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2013-07-19 11:35:27 UTC
Silver Getsuga wrote:
Not saying they're. But they look weak in particular case. Low sig (up to and including cruisers) fast ( >500 m/s) ships that swarm L3s. On paper mid-to-long range turrets on a kiting ship look better than heavy missiles.

Even with precision missiles. _Right now_ precision missiles on slow (<300 m/s) targets look about the same as rails. Post buff rails will do ~33% better. Range wise rails do better too.

That makes Drake look bad. It'll not be effective in L3s (due to dps) and L4s (due to tank/damage trade off). Maybe some kind of damage application bonus would do in theory (instead of range bonus, since drake have enough tank for L3s). Or players can adapt with HAMs.

But you don't have to believe me. Play with DPS windows in EFT. I could be wrong.


Tank and dps is fine for level 3 missions. Tank should be enough for Guristas level 4s.

[Drake, L3 Active PvE Drake]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Internal Force Field Array I

10MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Booster II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Windman Advena
Facehoof
#146 - 2013-07-19 11:39:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Windman Advena
I calculated (ETF-warrior) DPS for turrets for all 5 character, no ship bonuses, T1 ammo (-50% optimal), biggest size of turret and 3 damagemods.

Rails: 66 (old - 50)
Beams: 65 (52)
Artillery: 47 (42)
Artillery with 20% RoF bonus: 52

For comparison:
Blasters: 73
Pulse: 60 (less than new Beams damage)
Autocannons: 54

Common navy ammo will give 15% more damage


Havy missles: 37
Fury havy missles: 50
In one of last big updates damage of all havy missles was redused by 10%

HAM: 52
Rage HAM: 70
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#147 - 2013-07-19 11:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
The damage buff is far to massive, there will be little reason at all to use blasters and auto cannons with this numbers outside solo pvp, the only saving grace of puls is that beams are nearly unfit able on everything except the Harbinger, Zealot and Absolution and puls got scorch ammo.

The major issue of medium rails is the lack of tracking in combination with fast movement at 18-28km kitting ranges and that caldari hulls lack the effective turrets(gallente hulls with drones + rails already get ok damage on paper). The reason why small rails work is that they are used within web range and large rails are used on hulls with a lot of tracking mods or at far higher ranges. Damage is not the source of the problem with medium rails(at least on gallente hulls), it is damage application and all you gain by this change is wrecking medium blasters and auto cannons.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Goonswarm Federation
#148 - 2013-07-19 11:50:18 UTC
Btw do Rise and Fozzy read failheap threads? Some really good points there
Akimo Heth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#149 - 2013-07-19 11:58:04 UTC
The Djego wrote:
The damage buff is far to massive, there will be little reason at all to use blasters and auto cannons with this numbers outside solo pvp, the only saving grace of puls is that beams are nearly unfit able on everything except the Harbinger, Zealot and Absolution and puls got scorch ammo.

The major issue of medium rails is the lack of tracking in combination with fast movement at 18-28km kitting ranges and that caldari hulls lack the effective turrets(gallente hulls with drones + rails already get ok damage on paper). The reason why small rails work is that they are used within web range and large rails are used on hulls with a lot of tracking mods or at far higher ranges. Damage is not the source of the problem with medium rails(at least on gallente hulls), it is damage application and all you gain by this change is wrecking medium blasters and auto cannons.


Great points on medium beams, it is still far easier to just fit pulse scorch and save the ass ache of trying to make a beam fit work with the PG fitting and cap use.
Silver Getsuga
Liber Primus
#150 - 2013-07-19 12:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Silver Getsuga
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Silver Getsuga wrote:
Not saying they're. But they look weak in particular case. Low sig (up to and including cruisers) fast ( >500 m/s) ships that swarm L3s. On paper mid-to-long range turrets on a kiting ship look better than heavy missiles.

Even with precision missiles. _Right now_ precision missiles on slow (<300 m/s) targets look about the same as rails. Post buff rails will do ~33% better. Range wise rails do better too.

That makes Drake look bad. It'll not be effective in L3s (due to dps) and L4s (due to tank/damage trade off). Maybe some kind of damage application bonus would do in theory (instead of range bonus, since drake have enough tank for L3s). Or players can adapt with HAMs.

But you don't have to believe me. Play with DPS windows in EFT. I could be wrong.


Tank and dps is fine for level 3 missions. Tank should be enough for Guristas level 4s.

[Drake, L3 Active PvE Drake]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Internal Force Field Array I

10MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Booster II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I


Are you really using navy ammo for L3s?

Anyway let me show you a DPS graph:

Target is 418 m/s Caracal moving towards us on an angle. So rails wouldn't look too awesome.

Drake and Ferox fighting with 5 Hobgoblins II.

As you can see navy ammo aside Ferox beats Drake on that target @ 10 km or more. Navy ammo closes the gap but still Ferox looks better 20-45km.

If you remove angular velocity (since frigates and cruisers in L3s don't spiral you much) Ferox will be better up to 52 km

http://imgur.com/vHYSbf2

P.S. Again, I'm not saying heavy missiles are broken. They just look weaker to me in L3s where cruisers+frigates are 50+% of ships
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#151 - 2013-07-19 13:05:45 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Medium Rails (all sizes and metas):
+15% Rate of Fire
+15% Damage Multiplier
-15% Tracking Speed

Corresponing cap use reduction?

At present an Omen with Heavy Beams will burn about 10.5 GJ per shot while a Thorax with 250mm Rails burns 10. (According to the values listed in the EVElopedia). The base ROF on the two turrets is the same 6s (the Omen than has an ROF bonus of course).
The ROF gain of new rails puts a significant, additional cap pressure on the ships using them - pushing them closer to Lasers with ammo use...


Not sure where those numbers are coming from? Guessing Evelopedia is massively out of date.

Comparing an Omen (multifreq) and Thorax (antimatter) as above with level 5 skills. (So you get the 50% cap bonus on the Omen)
Each laser on the Omen uses over 8 cap per shot. Their cycle time is 3.24 seconds. 2.47 cap per second per gun
The Thorax guns use 5.25 cap per shot, with a cycle time of 4.6 seconds. 1.14 cap per second per gun.

Even with the Rate of fire change on the rails they aren't even going to be close to the cap usage of Beam lasers - and that's on a ship with a cap usage bonus. BTW - thorax has near enough the same sized cap as an Omen :)

On a Maller - 16.25 cap per volley, cycle time of 4.32. That's 3.76 cap per second per gun.


Now this isn't a whining about cap usage post, I just wanted to point out that Rails aren't even the same league as Beams for using cap!
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#152 - 2013-07-19 13:18:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Does anybody else think this should be the order of alpha to dps?

-Heavy Missiles
-Beams
-Arties
-Rails

why?
- missiles .. well think nukes .. also useful for reducing lag

-Beams ... well big beams laser tearing through your ship it should hurt.. and would take time for the heat to dissipate for another shot .. also lasers aplha is low atm and they use A LOT of cap.

-Arites .. are like little missiles

-Rails .. are basically a swarm of bullets

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#153 - 2013-07-19 13:20:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Windman Advena wrote:
Rails and Beams DPS will be about 40% better then Artillery DPS.
Give Artillery 20% RoF bonus. Artillery DPS will be still 25% less then Beam or Rails DPS



When you get 6k alpha out of a T2 arty fit you get about 2.5 from a dps fit with other guns and alpha > to DPS everyday, if you can't kill it with a single volley bring more arties. Those are already the reason why beams and rails are total crap atm.



Just shut up please. Alpha is NOT > DPS every day. Alpha is > DPS only if ALpha is high enough to kill the enemy. When you are fightign larger ships.. DPS >>>>> ALPHA.



I'm pretty sure you either misunderstood the "thing" or don't understand at all how alpha works.

Fit a instant arty cane and shoot T2 destroyers with to see them pop under a single shot, now do the same thing with your uber rails or beams and watch your target gtfo and laugh at you.

The only way to kill the same destroyer with those 2 guns other than alpha is when the target stays enough time for you to cycle several times your guns which they shouldn't aloud you to, on the other hand a single volley means instant kill

Again instead of EFT spewing numbers this is about experience and I have yet to see any rails or beams battlecruiser one shot T2 destroyers with 6k ehp or blow in two shots faction frigates at 140km like arty can do (if you can't do this you need to learn how)

Now if you're talking about structure shooting crap with bazillions EHP or capital ships DPS guns or faster ROF guns will be superior ONLY because smaller volley rails/beams will catch arty dps after a couple shots, non the less, is something can be killed with 2 or 3 arty volleys arties will be superior at use in this case every time.

After latest rails changes and some ships bonus changes Rails got a nice buff but still, RAILS&BEAMS need to cycle a couple times to catch up same dmg you can put with arties in a single volley, it's that simple.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#154 - 2013-07-19 13:22:15 UTC
Akimo Heth wrote:
The Djego wrote:
The damage buff is far to massive, there will be little reason at all to use blasters and auto cannons with this numbers outside solo pvp, the only saving grace of puls is that beams are nearly unfit able on everything except the Harbinger, Zealot and Absolution and puls got scorch ammo.

The major issue of medium rails is the lack of tracking in combination with fast movement at 18-28km kitting ranges and that caldari hulls lack the effective turrets(gallente hulls with drones + rails already get ok damage on paper). The reason why small rails work is that they are used within web range and large rails are used on hulls with a lot of tracking mods or at far higher ranges. Damage is not the source of the problem with medium rails(at least on gallente hulls), it is damage application and all you gain by this change is wrecking medium blasters and auto cannons.


Great points on medium beams, it is still far easier to just fit pulse scorch and save the ass ache of trying to make a beam fit work with the PG fitting and cap use.


Especially when you consider the ramifications of having to put a PG mod in a lowslot instead of a heat sink as a result.

In that case, it's still Pulse >>> Beams.

The range, I presume, cannot change all that much without causing balance issues. So the solution lies in the fitting requirements and cap use. But then, I've had this argument all before. At least Bouh hasn't popped up yet to scream about how you can't buff beams at all ever.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#155 - 2013-07-19 13:34:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Akimo Heth wrote:
The Djego wrote:
The damage buff is far to massive, there will be little reason at all to use blasters and auto cannons with this numbers outside solo pvp, the only saving grace of puls is that beams are nearly unfit able on everything except the Harbinger, Zealot and Absolution and puls got scorch ammo.

The major issue of medium rails is the lack of tracking in combination with fast movement at 18-28km kitting ranges and that caldari hulls lack the effective turrets(gallente hulls with drones + rails already get ok damage on paper). The reason why small rails work is that they are used within web range and large rails are used on hulls with a lot of tracking mods or at far higher ranges. Damage is not the source of the problem with medium rails(at least on gallente hulls), it is damage application and all you gain by this change is wrecking medium blasters and auto cannons.


Great points on medium beams, it is still far easier to just fit pulse scorch and save the ass ache of trying to make a beam fit work with the PG fitting and cap use.


Especially when you consider the ramifications of having to put a PG mod in a lowslot instead of a heat sink as a result.

In that case, it's still Pulse >>> Beams.

The range, I presume, cannot change all that much without causing balance issues. So the solution lies in the fitting requirements and cap use. But then, I've had this argument all before. At least Bouh hasn't popped up yet to scream about how you can't buff beams at all ever.


And these changes aren't making LR weapon HACs any better or better choice than ABCs but they will have some uses.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#156 - 2013-07-19 13:38:26 UTC
Quote:
And these changes aren't making LR weapon HACs any better or better choice than ABCs but they will have some uses.


HACs, on their own? Maybe, maybe not. But they are still the pre-alpha, the starting point for discussion, as Rise mentioned. Hence why this discussion is so important.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#157 - 2013-07-19 13:45:25 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Windman Advena wrote:
Rails and Beams DPS will be about 40% better then Artillery DPS.
Give Artillery 20% RoF bonus. Artillery DPS will be still 25% less then Beam or Rails DPS



When you get 6k alpha out of a T2 arty fit you get about 2.5 from a dps fit with other guns and alpha > to DPS everyday, if you can't kill it with a single volley bring more arties. Those are already the reason why beams and rails are total crap atm.



Just shut up please. Alpha is NOT > DPS every day. Alpha is > DPS only if ALpha is high enough to kill the enemy. When you are fightign larger ships.. DPS >>>>> ALPHA.


I think you are forgetting arty is more than just dps. It has variable damage type and no cap usage. That's why it has such low dps in comparison, because it can choose how to shoot, isn't shut down by cap issues AND has alpha.

Against an omni tank out of neut range which survives volley? Yes, it is weaker. But then we don't want homogenized weapons, right?
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#158 - 2013-07-19 14:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
so why do med rails have less tracking then med arty? do you plan on changing that for all sizes?

also shield rail brutix now does more dps then armor blaster one \o/

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#159 - 2013-07-19 14:09:30 UTC
Crazy KSK wrote:
so why do med rails have less tracking then med arty? do you plan on changing that for all sizes?

also shield rail brutix now does more dps then armor blaster one \o/


really thats crazy i assume blasters with 2 mags against Rails with 3 mags?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Goonswarm Federation
#160 - 2013-07-19 14:16:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmell
The funny thing is that still with worst tracking, med rails will in some cases outperform all available medium sized gun types