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Rattlesnake for incursions?
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Gillian Farstrider
Royal Trading
#1 - 2013-07-17 11:08:34 UTC
Hi guys!

I've been doing the standard Caldari progression (Kestrel -> Corax -> Drake). My missile support skills are pretty good and I'm looking at moving up into battleships for L4s soon.

I understand my options are RNI, SNI, Golem, Tengu, and eventually Rattlesnake without cross-training into another faction's guns.

However, I notice that the Nightmare and Machariel seem to be more popular for doing incursions, and i don't want to waste months of training if I'm eventually going to have to switch.

Is the Rattlesnake suitable for incursions, or should I be ditching missiles in favour of turrets?
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#2 - 2013-07-17 11:36:37 UTC
Rattlesnake no, but a good navy raven with torps should get you invited to incursion fleets.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-07-17 11:38:48 UTC
Turrets are generally preferred because they can apply damage to their target immediately, as opposed to missiles with their volley delay, and the higher-level incursion communities value time-efficiency greatly. The Rattlesnake can do instantaneous damage with sentry drones, but it's too easy to be forced to leave them behind, which effectively pulls the Rattler's fangs (so to speak) - and missiles are really a secondary weapon system for the Rattler, with no hull bonus except to range.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-07-17 11:45:46 UTC
Rattlesnake is so bad at getting dmg applied that it's just not worth it.

RNI or Golem.

torp and cruise are both viable (cruise tech 2 that is)
SaccharIS
Dammalin Industries Incorporated
#5 - 2013-07-17 13:23:23 UTC
It might also be an option to crosstrain for Hybrids. You can use them on Caldari ships as well and start Incursions with a Rokh and later move up to a Vindicator. In fact all of the other three Pirate BS are what you want to fly for Incursions.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-07-17 16:15:45 UTC
Cpt Tirel wrote:
Rattlesnake no, but a good navy raven with torps should get you invited to incursion fleets.


depends if the fleet cares about winning sites, if they do they will never invite a torp-anything.

Art of Explosions
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#7 - 2013-07-18 02:19:29 UTC
Rattlesnake is awesome for incursions!

HQ fleets use them as anchors any chance they get.

It also has a lot more dps than it once did.

If you have a fleet that cares about time it takes to get sites done v.s. competition fleets RS can shine in VG's too.
(( As in fleet smart enough to use 3 webs and 3 tp's instead of tc's with the RS drawing aggro with ecm/nos. ))

You do have to have implants and you do want to have max skills not just on dps but the skills that help apply it to smaller targets.

No VG group needs more than 1 RS or Navy scorpion.

HQ's that I flew with liked to have 3 of them to help control aggro.

Most of the RS hate on dps was before the drone damage mods and the change to cruise missiles.
Max DPS went from about 900 to 1200 in that time.

If you run the DPS graphs for other used pirate faction ships when using the 3 and 3 approach you will see the DPS be very close to matching but you get the nice addition of a ship that can actually draw/hold aggro.

If you are looking at running with groups that do tc's and care more about competing for the site v.s. site completion times the RS will be hated on.

Either way make sure you sell yourself on how highly trained you are for the ship because a high sp and high skilled player will do far better in a RS then any new player in his brand new nightmare / mach / vindicator.

It's also nice to have the one ship in the fleet that can fix any armor leakage or mine with drones when those odd things pop up.

Navy Scorpion is the next best thing when you need one to help run a large site.



Short version:

VG's it's mixed reviews. (( Group dependent ))

Assaults: Recommended to have one.

HQ's it's best anchor possible well worth training.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-07-19 13:00:54 UTC
Disregard the above post.

> HQ fleets use them as anchors any chance they get.
Over generalization, maybe the fleets you run in do, but none of the ones I run with, or that can actually offer competition do this
Any of the battleships should be able to anchor.

> If you have a fleet that cares about time it takes to get sites done v.s. competition fleets RS can shine in VG's too.
What is the difference? a competition fleet is out to apply as much DPS in as little time as possible, so it can win the contest.
A fleet trying to blitz sites is out to apply as much DPS in as little time as possible, so it can finish the site.
Please show the distinction.

> No VG group needs more than 1 RS or Navy scorpion.
No VG group needs more than 0 RS or Navy scorpion.

> HQ's that I flew with liked to have 3 of them to help control aggro.
Control aggro? what are you talking about

> you will see the DPS be very close to matching but you get the nice addition of a ship that can actually draw/hold aggro.
Again, what are you talking about? You want a ship that draws/holds aggro... look to Vindis or nightmares using TPs

> If you are looking at running with groups that do tc's and care more about competing for the site v.s. site completion times the RS will be hated on.

Rightfully so.... and again with the false contrast between completing sites fast vs competing against other fleets (hint, the fleet that can complete the site the fastest will win the contest)

> It's also nice to have the one ship in the fleet that can fix any armor leakage or mine with drones when those odd things pop up.
The Logis should be able to do that with their drones. In HQs, logi drones are too slow to be of use, and are basically worthless, so I see many shield logi fitting armor drones for this purpose.
FWIW, you can use the utility highs of NMs for that (since they don't necessarily need cap buddies anymore)

> VG's it's mixed reviews.
VGs its worthless, its highs are useless, and in OTAs and NMCs the frigs all pop before the drones get anywhere.
I suppose with Garde IIs, it would do OK damage application, but a Domi would do better, and have highs that can also do damage.

> Assaults: Recommended to have one.
No, again, a Domi or N domi will do more DPS, and the extra tank on the RS is not needed.

> HQ's it's best anchor possible well worth training.
What is your obsession with a ship that has way more HP than needed.
HQs require a lot of moving, making the sentries of RS crap, and the heavies are too slow to apply much damage,


If you want a ship using the caldari skills for incursions:
Navy Raven (BS and missile skills) - though its not that great, TvP will like it
Rokh with T2 guns (BS and hybrid skills) - blaster rokhs can do pretty good damage application with null
Nightmare (BS, same gunnery support skills as with hybrids)
Vindicator - uses the same hybrid skills