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Tonight's fleet fight in Z9PP-H

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Author
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#541 - 2013-07-10 14:08:22 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

There's thing thing, it's called the weekend, and it's that time where a lot of our development team spend time with their families after working long hours all week.



Because you are doing it all, including forum moderation!

Tight ship and budget and it shows.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#542 - 2013-07-10 14:18:08 UTC
You know, something's been bothering me since Z9PP. It doesn't really have much to do with CCP, it's more a concern with the "generals" orchestrating this war and the way they think. Everyone has a "singularity" mindset while fighting this war....hey, fight's going down in Z9PP, lets all pile on the node!!!

Did at any point anyone consider sending forces to B-D or elsewhere in the pipe to stop CFC reinforcements from arriving on the besieged node? Was CFC even aware of a regional theatre of operations outside of *PING* GET ME MOAR SHIPS TO Z9PP NAOW!" ?

Would Mad Ani lose his giblets if he was trying to jockey two or more clients simultaneously to actually observe fighting occurring in more than one spot? Would potential customers have been more likely to stay and watch if it wasn't just one system with red and orange squares that hardly moved in the course of 20 minutes, but rather mad ani frantically trying to catch two live battles on drastically improved nodes because regional forces were spread out over them?

Maybe it's been talked about, done, and I'm beating a dead horse, but it just seems to me that everything revolves around the timers, and everyone needs to be in one spot for the fight. No one seems to think about cutting off access in surrounding systems...I really wish I could log into the main eve news websites and read about multiple engagements in fountain that had a profound effect on the battle for a particular system.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#543 - 2013-07-10 14:23:42 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:


Did at any point anyone consider sending forces to B-D or elsewhere in the pipe to stop CFC reinforcements from arriving on the besieged node? Was CFC even aware of a regional theatre of operations outside of *PING* GET ME MOAR SHIPS TO Z9PP NAOW!" ?



You ******* ******. How about you stop talking out of your ass and realize, yes there was actually a fleet stopping reinforcements coming from B-D. Look up the killboards yourself.
Q 5
999 HOLDINGS LLC
#544 - 2013-07-10 14:26:53 UTC
I say let Zhila Man decide what should be done.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#545 - 2013-07-10 14:31:53 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Maybe it's been talked about, done, and I'm beating a dead horse, but it just seems to me that everything revolves around the timers, and everyone needs to be in one spot for the fight. No one seems to think about cutting off access in surrounding systems...I really wish I could log into the main eve news websites and read about multiple engagements in fountain that had a profound effect on the battle for a particular system.


EvE isn't a tactical shooter, unfortunately. Seen it before, discuss tactics the leaders are more interested in killboards than sense.

It accepts blob fighting. Blob fighting can't be handled by CCP's setup as is. So it comes always back to that root of the problem. CCP could change the culture, can change the mechanics, but it seems to enjoy blob warfare more.

So, even if the leaders did fight with other than blob tactics -- 400+ man fleets in one zone -- how combat is designed it's designed for mass killing with mass ships. As long as that's the mechanics, the only solution is via tech/hardware, as CCP isn't changing the fight mechanics or fighting culture by design.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#546 - 2013-07-10 14:34:56 UTC
Confirming large fights are important.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#547 - 2013-07-10 15:02:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Kijo Rikki
Ammzi wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:


Did at any point anyone consider sending forces to B-D or elsewhere in the pipe to stop CFC reinforcements from arriving on the besieged node? Was CFC even aware of a regional theatre of operations outside of *PING* GET ME MOAR SHIPS TO Z9PP NAOW!" ?



You ******* ******. How about you stop talking out of your ass and realize, yes there was actually a fleet stopping reinforcements coming from B-D. Look up the killboards yourself.


The trouble with calling me out is, I will go back and check. I will admit when I am wrong, I am not so egotistical that I will deny it.

So I just went back and reviewed all kills for July 4th in B-D, EI- & J5A. While the logs won't tell everything, it mostly seems like Black Legion had a small gang in B-D that day, Gentlemen's agreement Retirement Club (sorry) had a small gang and there was a wing of Test/N3 bombers all inside EI-, and CVA seemed to be present in J5A.

Most kills had around 10 people on them, a few from CVA were in the 50s. All told, about 5-10 megathrons died, and maybe a few dozen celestis. There were at one point over 2000 pilots piled into Z9PP, comparatively speaking, there wasn't a concerted effort to keep CFC forces from coming down the pipe.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#548 - 2013-07-10 15:18:13 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Most kills had around 10 people on them, a few from CVA were in the 50s. All told, about 5-7 megathrons died, and maybe a few dozen celestis. There were at one point over 2000 pilots piled into Z9PP, comparatively speaking, there wasn't a concerted effort to keep CFC forces from coming down the pipe.


It's not the pipe, it's the mass.

CCP can't split it in manageable bites within their system. This is why they have to be on call to work voodoo to fix a problem their setup can't handle.

So spreading the mass around in the zone itself doesn't fix the problem, when the mass can't be deferred without closing things down or capping nodes as the alternative.

Have to offload it out of region, to nodes that aren't used much. That's not possible for now. In effect CRZ for EvE.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#549 - 2013-07-10 15:32:26 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:

It's not the pipe, it's the mass.

CCP can't split it in manageable bites within their system. This is why they have to be on call to work voodoo to fix a problem their setup can't handle.

So spreading the mass around in the zone itself doesn't fix the problem, when the mass can't be deferred without closing things down or capping nodes as the alternative.

Have to offload it out of region, to nodes that aren't used much. That's not possible for now. In effect CRZ for EvE.


I'm not 100% on this, but I'm thinking systems aren't saved on nodes logically, like by constellation or region. At least, that's why I think people have been complaining about TiDi in completely empty systems that are no where near fountain.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#550 - 2013-07-10 15:48:09 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:

It's not the pipe, it's the mass.

CCP can't split it in manageable bites within their system. This is why they have to be on call to work voodoo to fix a problem their setup can't handle.

So spreading the mass around in the zone itself doesn't fix the problem, when the mass can't be deferred without closing things down or capping nodes as the alternative.

Have to offload it out of region, to nodes that aren't used much. That's not possible for now. In effect CRZ for EvE.


I'm not 100% on this, but I'm thinking systems aren't saved on nodes logically, like by constellation or region. At least, that's why I think people have been complaining about TiDi in completely empty systems that are no where near fountain.


That's pooling system resources to an area, it's not offloading the load itself. Pooling system resources is like on your computer if you take 2GB worth of 4GB of memory and 1/2 it's CPU and put it on another task. The overall computer becomes sluggish.

CRZ operates on totally different servers that are merged virtually. So any traffic in one area is not on one node. It's even out to how many players from various servers are in that zone. So, technically they can have 10 x 40 players in one zone, without needing to cap the zone of players or reroute system resources to that zone. Each realm is independent with their own system resources, but share the same zone.

That's the beauty of that tech. Maintain autonomy but can also pool many otherwise independent servers together in a one virtual world, without the problems seen here with capping and rerouting system resources. Blizzard isn't calling Ghostcrawler at 3am to manage a 400 man raid in Orgimmar, it's pointless waste of human resources.

Tech now is available to do this. How CCP will do it, I don't know, but it's there now.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#551 - 2013-07-10 15:51:04 UTC
You got it, there are usually 70 done odd systems on a logical node......they are in no way geographically related in game.

Which makes perfect sense when you are trying to spread processor resources.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#552 - 2013-07-10 15:56:03 UTC
You got it, there are usually 70 done odd systems on a logical node......they are in no way geographically related in game.

Which makes perfect sense when you are trying to spread processor resources.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#553 - 2013-07-10 16:02:47 UTC
Onictus wrote:
You got it, there are usually 70 done odd systems on a logical node......they are in no way geographically related in game.

Which makes perfect sense when you are trying to spread processor resources.


But that doesn't need to done anymore.

Tech now is virtually connecting different servers, with system independent resources, in a seamless world.

Blizzard had to find a way to virtually merge servers without physically merging them. That's possible today, and with some nice benefits (especially for MMO 2.0).

CCP uses the model of physically connected servers, which has depended system resources.

Blizzard is using a model of independent servers virtually merged with independent system resources.

There's plus and minuses of each system, but Blizzard's model allows more flexibility with offloading.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Ilkahn
Ideal Mechanisms
#554 - 2013-07-10 16:14:36 UTC
If CCP wanted to REALLY improve server performance they should limit the size of fleets. MOAR fleets = MOAR FCs = MOAR Primaries = MOAR ships going POOF faster which should equal an increase in the battletimes removing players faster from the area and hopefully keeping up their hardwares ability to process the information.

Fleet Cap is what 250 players or so? The fleets i sat in seemed like this, "primary x", and then everyone shoots anything but them anyway. Why shouldn't fleets be cut down to like 50 ships or so. Then you'd have 5 fleets hopefully killing 5 ships at a time instead of the 1 they are hoping to kill now.

Of course i'm just a scrub and know literally nothing about how this stuff works, just a thought that seems to make sense.
Commander Spurty
#555 - 2013-07-10 16:23:57 UTC
Haha .. what if every TEST pilot logged in and jumped into the same system. How many times would TQ fall over?

We're just incredibly lucky they haven't worked out the instant win button (Just log in!) yet

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#556 - 2013-07-10 16:35:47 UTC
Ilkahn wrote:
If CCP wanted to REALLY improve server performance they should limit the size of fleets. MOAR fleets = MOAR FCs = MOAR Primaries = MOAR ships going POOF faster which should equal an increase in the battletimes removing players faster from the area and hopefully keeping up their hardwares ability to process the information.

Fleet Cap is what 250 players or so? The fleets i sat in seemed like this, "primary x", and then everyone shoots anything but them anyway. Why shouldn't fleets be cut down to like 50 ships or so. Then you'd have 5 fleets hopefully killing 5 ships at a time instead of the 1 they are hoping to kill now.

Of course i'm just a scrub and know literally nothing about how this stuff works, just a thought that seems to make sense.


The same problem still exists of the mass will always follow where the action is. Which just changes the mechanics of smaller fleets, with the same amount of players in the zone.

It's a hardware issue, fixed by hardware/tech (like Blizzard is doing it with virtually merging servers).

Once it is fixed, EvE can have some good things like dynamic big fleets, and CCP Falcon can sleep at night!

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#557 - 2013-07-10 16:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Onictus wrote:
You got it, there are usually 70 done odd systems on a logical node......they are in no way geographically related in game.

Which makes perfect sense when you are trying to spread processor resources.


But that doesn't need to done anymore.

Tech now is virtually connecting different servers, with system independent resources, in a seamless world.

Blizzard had to find a way to virtually merge servers without physically merging them. That's possible today, and with some nice benefits (especially for MMO 2.0).

CCP uses the model of physically connected servers, which has depended system resources.

Blizzard is using a model of independent servers virtually merged with independent system resources.

There's plus and minuses of each system, but Blizzard's model allows more flexibility with offloading.


It works nothing at all like that, but please tell me more about dynamic load sharing, not like I'm a computer engineer or anything.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#558 - 2013-07-10 16:59:06 UTC
Onictus wrote:
It works nothing at all like that, but please tell me more about dynamic load sharing, not like I'm a computer engineer or anything.


What doesn't?

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#559 - 2013-07-10 17:00:12 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Ilkahn wrote:
If CCP wanted to REALLY improve server performance they should limit the size of fleets. MOAR fleets = MOAR FCs = MOAR Primaries = MOAR ships going POOF faster which should equal an increase in the battletimes removing players faster from the area and hopefully keeping up their hardwares ability to process the information.

Fleet Cap is what 250 players or so? The fleets i sat in seemed like this, "primary x", and then everyone shoots anything but them anyway. Why shouldn't fleets be cut down to like 50 ships or so. Then you'd have 5 fleets hopefully killing 5 ships at a time instead of the 1 they are hoping to kill now.

Of course i'm just a scrub and know literally nothing about how this stuff works, just a thought that seems to make sense.


The same problem still exists of the mass will always follow where the action is. Which just changes the mechanics of smaller fleets, with the same amount of players in the zone.

It's a hardware issue, fixed by hardware/tech (like Blizzard is doing it with virtually merging servers).

Once it is fixed, EvE can have some good things like dynamic big fleets, and CCP Falcon can sleep at night!



Blizzard hasn't come close to fixing it, hence the cap on that outdoor PvP area in lich king.


You are also forgetting that WOW IS INSTANCED it it not a pervasive world environment, which make it much easier, just add servers...

And you will never have 3000 people dogpiling one logical proc.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#560 - 2013-07-10 17:03:11 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Onictus wrote:
It works nothing at all like that, but please tell me more about dynamic load sharing, not like I'm a computer engineer or anything.


What doesn't?


Bluzzard's server architecture.