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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

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Daraja
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#341 - 2011-11-09 03:29:26 UTC
Kiev Duran wrote:



You show me a pilot that flies a Moa, and I'll show you one that has no grasp of EVE combat.

I for one am excited that the Caldari might get a combat option that isn't a Drake; because everything else in our arsenal (that doesn't make use of ECM) is either weak to the point of uselessness, or out preformed at it's role in every single way by another race's ship. I'm also quite frustrated that it looks like the Naga will be out preformed at it's role in every single way by another race's ship.


Again, this is the problem I'm trying to highlight. A Moa (and all cruisers in general) are so outclassed by their BC cousins that they are already useless. Making Tier 3 BCs faster seems to be just salting the wound.
tika te
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#342 - 2011-11-09 04:09:23 UTC
i have a bit more radical theory (please don't flame, it's just a thought):

i also think that there should be some "distance" between ship classes..
cruisers should be far weaker than a bc and ofc much weaker as a battlehip in terms of their hp, but they also should be MUCH harder to hit with larger sized weapons...
a battleship should really have HUGE difficulties hitting a moving cruiser, a cruiser same difficulties hitting a frig ...
on the other side..a bs should be able to survive the attack of 1-2 cruisers much longer than just few seconds...a cruiser should withstand the attacks of 2-3 frigs without dying in few eyeblinks..

sitting in a larger ship should mean sth....there should be A FAIR EXCHANGE for the sacrifice of agility and speed...
i.e. killing a battleship with just 3-4 frigs shoud be an achievement, not just a "he's tackled and will die soon" standard program..

in my oppinion better scaling between ship classes would greatly improve the eve gameplay..

this perhaps better fits in an another thread:
somwhere here on the forums so suggested giving lower tier weapons within a size-class better sig resolution. perhaps thats a first step in increasing diversity...i.e. a dual railgun 250mm having resolution of 300m, a 350mm rail a resolution of 350mm and the 425mm staying at 400m. then fitting lower tier weapons wouldn't just be a consideration when you don't have enough PG/CPU to fit higher tiers...
Ja'thaal Deathbringer
The Directionally Challenged
#343 - 2011-11-09 04:34:26 UTC
Just out of curiosity, when are the devs planning on putting the skins on the ships? We have a basic outline, but I want to see my Oracle glisten as its Mega pulse lasers tear up the battlefield.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#344 - 2011-11-09 05:10:54 UTC
Daraja wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:


T1 cruisers have been more or less useless for a long ass time now. They're good for funny gimmicks and slosh ops and thats about it. How about instead of complaining you get excited about how there's going to be a new set of ships that are only marginally more skill / isk intensive than cruisers, but will be super useful for PvP?


I don't disagree, I'm just asking why if they are already useless, make them more so by taking away the only advantage they had over their BC cousins.

I prefer a game of options and had hopes that cruisers would be the counter to tier 3 BCs, as they became the counter to Tier 1 & 2 BCs.



I mean, you *can* counter the new BCs with cruisers... you just have to fly them precisely. I just lost a blaster Talos to a Celestis on sisi because it warped on on top of me and scrammed me-- no way to track it. I mean, granted, it was a Talos (they're awful) but any of these new ships will get owned by a cruiser if you can get on top of them.
Daraja
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#345 - 2011-11-09 05:44:04 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:


I mean, you *can* counter the new BCs with cruisers... you just have to fly them precisely. I just lost a blaster Talos to a Celestis on sisi because it warped on on top of me and scrammed me-- no way to track it. I mean, granted, it was a Talos (they're awful) but any of these new ships will get owned by a cruiser if you can get on top of them.


Celestis base velocity is 39 m/s slower than the Talos. If you are fitted with the same tackle and propulsion as him simply extend range to reduce tranversal to blow him away.
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#346 - 2011-11-09 05:44:17 UTC
Are we getting a fixed Naga? Any DEV can reply, are you taking notes? Cool
Miriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#347 - 2011-11-09 06:30:31 UTC
Ja'thaal Deathbringer wrote:
Just out of curiosity, when are the devs planning on putting the skins on the ships? We have a basic outline, but I want to see my Oracle glisten as its Mega pulse lasers tear up the battlefield.


Mega Pulses look like **** anyway compared to what they once were, and the sound effect is horrid so don't worry about it.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#348 - 2011-11-09 10:21:49 UTC
Daraja wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:


I mean, you *can* counter the new BCs with cruisers... you just have to fly them precisely. I just lost a blaster Talos to a Celestis on sisi because it warped on on top of me and scrammed me-- no way to track it. I mean, granted, it was a Talos (they're awful) but any of these new ships will get owned by a cruiser if you can get on top of them.


Celestis base velocity is 39 m/s slower than the Talos. If you are fitted with the same tackle and propulsion as him simply extend range to reduce tranversal to blow him away.


Do you know what a small gap that is assuming you're both scrammed and webbed? (its ~15m/s^2) It would take minutes for the Talos to open up any useful kind of range, by which time he'd be dead. Thats assuming the Talos has a web and a scram to counter a hostile cruiser that was set up to kill the new BCs. If he only has a scram and the cruiser has a scram and a web he's completely buggered.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#349 - 2011-11-09 10:41:01 UTC
We cannot afford having battlecruiser outrunning cruisers and HACs no matter how much they need to get INTO range or KITE battleships... Reduce the speeds to make them sane and increase survivability by giving them a smaller signature and more hitpoints (makes them live longer but not easier to keep alive).

Also against battleships these ships does not need alpha - reduce the number of guns and compensate with a ROF bonus.
It will reduce build cost, lower alpha and keep the same damage.

Also I'm still very interested in the afterburner ideas... I'd love to give them either fitting bonus for large afterburners or speed bonus for medium afterburners. Balanced so they will not be faster than MWDing cruisers but still faster than MWDing battleships on the top.

Also I'm very interested in listening to how CCP will prevent the Naga from being an abomination.
I would be real sad to see Caldari being the only race not getting to use those fine L-cannons on a BC hull.

Pinky
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#350 - 2011-11-09 11:28:17 UTC

@ CCP Devs!!!


Its gone a little quiet!

We have to have new Stats for the troublesome BC's so they can be tried out, stop looking at numbers and just throw them into SiSi.

Its easier for you if they get tried out by the testers and if it doesn't work out or is OP...etc. you can just try the next idea, but don't sit scratching your heads trying to work this out on your own. Thats what we're here for!

...TEST... TEST... TEST

Lol
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#351 - 2011-11-09 11:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Pinky Denmark wrote:

Also I'm still very interested in the afterburner ideas... I'd love to give them either fitting bonus for large afterburners or speed bonus for medium afterburners. Balanced so they will not be faster than MWDing cruisers but still faster than MWDing battleships on the top.


You can use 100mn AB fittings on the Tornado or Oracle just fine. This means larger cuts in other areas(raw EHP, range and dps) but it is perfectly possible and it makes them a lot more survivable against BS weapons within 50km.

Requires a 3% grid implant:

[Oracle, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Centii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

[Tornado, New Setup 1]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Large Shield Extender II

Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#352 - 2011-11-09 11:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
I do agree we need action so we can test this in able time for the launch, however I rather want well thought changes giving us the required time to test and give feedback. Stats changing every other day on test server will be difficult reflecting on.

Also I believe it's the same people being resposible for all the balances so lets give them a break for at least 10-15 minutes Blink

Pinky

EDIT: What is the speed with those 100mn ABs and how do they handle/react with agility and acceleration?
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#353 - 2011-11-09 12:01:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Pinky Denmark wrote:
EDIT: What is the speed with those 100mn ABs and how do they handle/react with agility and acceleration?


Oracle does 1022 m/s and handles like a triple plated Abaddon with a MWD on, but for maneuvering at 40-50km(manual orbiting by slightly adjusting the angle w/o dropping speed or transversal) it is ok. P

Tornado handles a lot better with a 100mn AB, mostly because you get to the 500-600m/s speed where you really start sig tanking BS a lot quicker. It goes 1318m/s but you rarely archiving this speeds if you try to keep yourself in range to the target so it is more like 800m/s with the Oracle and 1k with the Tornado in practical scenarios where you want to keep your range and adjust it according to the target.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#354 - 2011-11-09 12:33:19 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
I do agree we need action so we can test this in able time for the launch, however I rather want well thought changes giving us the required time to test and give feedback. Stats changing every other day on test server will be difficult reflecting on.

Also I believe it's the same people being resposible for all the balances so lets give them a break for at least 10-15 minutes Blink

Pinky

EDIT: What is the speed with those 100mn ABs and how do they handle/react with agility and acceleration?



My point was that sometimes those well thought changes can come from pilots and trial and error, nothing on SiSi is set in stone but we need to start testing different ideas! Feedback on the current BC's has been Fed!
Bhaal Chinnian
#355 - 2011-11-09 12:59:20 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:


My point was that sometimes those well thought changes can come from pilots and trial and error, nothing on SiSi is set in stone but we need to start testing different ideas! Feedback on the current BC's has been Fed!


I have tried getting a few peeps together to test these ships, but ,as you may know, sisi public is as bad as npc chat and everytime a group got together we were fending off T3s and capitals.....poorly lol.


Well, I have nothing to do today, so if the devs want to send out a mass evemail to the community asking for tier 3 BC testers, I would volunteer a few hours so they can see the phail called Talos.

'A Good Plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed next week'-- George Patton
Willl Adama
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#356 - 2011-11-09 13:37:51 UTC
Kiev Duran wrote:

You show me a pilot that flies a Moa, and I'll show you one that has no grasp of EVE combat.



CHECK THIS OUT!!!

Hi
Rico Rage
#357 - 2011-11-09 13:56:37 UTC
So to recap CCP stance on this so far:

- Minmatar are OP for lore reasons
- Hybrids suck, but everything else is so screwed up we can't really fix em.
- Naga sucks because Caldari BS's suck, and we can't possibly break away from the chain of suckage and fess up that Raven and Rokh were badly designed to begin with.


Among many things, all this really seems to tell me is that CCP is too scared to change the status quo, and because the status quo is @$%^, things will continue to be as they are because they're afraid of trying to actually balance their game.

*sigh* There goes my hope for this expansion.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#358 - 2011-11-09 13:59:53 UTC
Willl Adama wrote:
Kiev Duran wrote:

You show me a pilot that flies a Moa, and I'll show you one that has no grasp of EVE combat.



CHECK THIS OUT!!!





I agree, absolutely, positively no grasp or even the slightest clue of EvE combat.......at all!!!!


Lol


Awesome Moa!!!
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#359 - 2011-11-09 14:32:21 UTC
Even a Moa can surprise people - I see fun kills with people using logistics to heal-zero people :p That doesn't mean they have great offensive capabilities...
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#360 - 2011-11-09 16:20:16 UTC
Willl Adama wrote:
Kiev Duran wrote:

You show me a pilot that flies a Moa, and I'll show you one that has no grasp of EVE combat.



CHECK THIS OUT!!!


Those are great engagements, using boosters, a tengu, and implants to gain a slight edge over people who are probably just in a typical fitted BC or HAC. Then again it's a T1 cruiser but compared to the effectiveness of a Rupture or even a Stabber.. nope.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.