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Dev Blog: An Update on Bug Reporting, Part 1

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pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-07-03 19:44:14 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:

So, I had a look at your bug reports. The non repro one - 4 separate testers tried to repro with the information you gave, and couldn't. That's a nonrepro over 23 separate attempts using varying conditions. Note the "sometimes" in your statement about the defect - some issues with varying repro rates can be very difficult to reproduce and we only have so much time to allocate to each issue.


See, from the replies via the existing system all I got was a "can't repro, closed". Not "had 4 separate dudes" or "insufficient time" or "maybe in the future, leaving open". It was as if CCP was pretending there was no bug, instead of marking something difficult to reproduce as a low priority. More of a communication issue than a QA issue (thanks for the reply). I know race conditions can be a pain -- had to deal with those in Garpa Topographical Survey in the past.

Quote:

The issue you find with the bug reporter isn't actually an issue at all, it's by design, and ultimately changing anyway.


Yeah. It was a bug filed out of frustration as I was in the process of reporting a different bug. Now irrelevant since you're changing the IGBR.

Quote:

Unfortunately the 3rd issue just looks like it hasn't been gotten around to yet. It's not that it's being ignored, but we are only so many Smile It is very well written though - kudos to you!


This is probably the one that would have the largest impact on the most players anyway. Please send it to a team for a fix. Thanks!

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#22 - 2013-07-03 19:59:34 UTC
It's interesting how a dev blog about bugs, is the first link ever on the EvE client launcher whose title is bugged... and unclickable. P

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Soylent Pete
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-07-03 20:09:18 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
It's interesting how a dev blog about bugs, is the first link ever on the EvE client launcher whose title is bugged... and unclickable. P


Darn it, I was going to say that.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#24 - 2013-07-03 20:12:06 UTC
pmchem wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:

So, I had a look at your bug reports. The non repro one - 4 separate testers tried to repro with the information you gave, and couldn't. That's a nonrepro over 23 separate attempts using varying conditions. Note the "sometimes" in your statement about the defect - some issues with varying repro rates can be very difficult to reproduce and we only have so much time to allocate to each issue.


See, from the replies via the existing system all I got was a "can't repro, closed". Not "had 4 separate dudes" or "insufficient time" or "maybe in the future, leaving open". It was as if CCP was pretending there was no bug, instead of marking something difficult to reproduce as a low priority. More of a communication issue than a QA issue (thanks for the reply). I know race conditions can be a pain -- had to deal with those in Garpa Topographical Survey in the past.

Quote:

The issue you find with the bug reporter isn't actually an issue at all, it's by design, and ultimately changing anyway.


Yeah. It was a bug filed out of frustration as I was in the process of reporting a different bug. Now irrelevant since you're changing the IGBR.

Quote:

Unfortunately the 3rd issue just looks like it hasn't been gotten around to yet. It's not that it's being ignored, but we are only so many Smile It is very well written though - kudos to you!


This is probably the one that would have the largest impact on the most players anyway. Please send it to a team for a fix. Thanks!


On the comments issue - looks like we found a bug in our site! X

New site won't have this problem.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#25 - 2013-07-03 20:44:11 UTC
I've seen Jira used in another MMO for bug reporting and it was FAR from average player/end-user friendly. It had lots of features for the programmers/devs to track issues but it was a maze to navigate and understand. I suppose this could have had something to do with how it was set up for that environment but, will your new system be friendly for us non-programmer types?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#26 - 2013-07-03 20:46:38 UTC
I made a couple of bug reports on my Dscan needing to be opened up every single time i undock..

Both times the replies i got were "No it doesn't"


I wasn't impressed.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Ginger Barbarella
#27 - 2013-07-03 20:55:56 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
StevieTopSiders wrote:
Can we expect work on the Petitions system soon? Every time I file a petition, it freezes my client up for about a minute.


Not my department, but if the client freezes I assume you're uploading files? It's not great behaviour I admit...


Just a quick side note, my clients (multiple different machines, has happened on different OSes, different service providers, both wireless and wired networks) always freeze ("Not Responding") when I submit a petition as well. No biggie, been doing that for as long as I can recall. And no, not uploading any files.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-07-03 21:04:01 UTC
I gave up on submitting bug reports a year or so ago when repeated reports on the gate jumping, titan bridging and jump bridging session change bug went unanswered for months.

Best of luck with your new system and rebuilding confidence in your customer-base willing to put the effort into submitting defect reports.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Ian Morbius
Robby Altair Corporation
#29 - 2013-07-03 21:25:32 UTC
Hope things go well changing over to JIRA.
Ivan Davis
Luna Free State
#30 - 2013-07-03 23:30:32 UTC
Nice to see improvements planned for issue-tracking.

On that topic - is anyone still reading the security@ccpgames.com mailbox?

I sent a (minor) forum-related security/spoofing issue there back on April 7th....

...and haven't gotten a response. At all. Not "thanks", not "we think that's a not a security bug", nothing.

(And the issue still exists.)

Should I just not bother next time?
CCP Habakuk
C C P
C C P Alliance
#31 - 2013-07-04 00:54:11 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Habakuk
Anabella Rella wrote:
I've seen Jira used in another MMO for bug reporting and it was FAR from average player/end-user friendly. It had lots of features for the programmers/devs to track issues but it was a maze to navigate and understand. I suppose this could have had something to do with how it was set up for that environment but, will your new system be friendly for us non-programmer types?


Jira itself is a very powerful tool and sure - it can get complicated if configured accordingly. It can also be quite friendly to the average user, if he does not need to use all of the features.
But: As EVE player you will not see Jira itself at all, Team Roundhouse Kick is building a new front-end for players (which communicates with Jira). This will hide all complicated stuff and you should have a better experience than you have now with the old bugs site.

Ian Morbius wrote:
Hope things go well changing over to JIRA.

Yes, things are going very well. While some parts took slightly longer than expected (mostly the data migration), there were no real problems and everything is now completed for the EVE project (except the bug reporting part).

Ivan Davis: Yes, the mailbox is being read for sure. Please send all security relevant information there.

Late replies to bug reports: Yes, we were not able to process all bug reports as fast as we wanted within the last year. We also had to mass-close bug reports sometimes, as we did not have the tools and manpower to go through all of them in the detail, which we wanted. Jira and the new bug-reporting page will improve our tools a lot, which should make us in CCP and also our volunteer bug hunters more efficient. We will also be looking into recruiting more volunteer bug hunters, as soon as the tools are in place.
For those, who did not receive any replies to bug reports at all: Please make sure, that the e-mail address is active, which is connected with your account.

CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five 0 | (Team Gridlock)

Bug reporting | Mass Testing
Nicen Jehr
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#32 - 2013-07-04 01:21:10 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
StevieTopSiders wrote:
Can we expect work on the Petitions system soon? Every time I file a petition, it freezes my client up for about a minute.


Not my department, but if the client freezes I assume you're uploading files? It's not great behaviour I admit...


My client freezes when I file bug reports regardless of whether I attach a file or not. It's not quite a minute, maybe 30 seconds. Still plenty of time to get ganked if I am in low/null without a cloak and want to file a bug report... Maybe you could at least make the "processing/uploading bugreport" window non-modal so I could warp out if hostiles arrive?

Little Things to improve ≡⋁≡ | My Little Things posts
Probe Job
Delocated
#33 - 2013-07-04 04:15:40 UTC
So, where do we report that the link for "An update on bug reporting, Part 1" in the launcher is broken?
Seth Toralen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-07-04 05:42:28 UTC
So.... with migrating the bug reports to the community site.... those of us experiencing the 324 Error with logging onto all of the EVE websites will no longer be able to access bug reports. Forums only still works for some of us because of cookies that still magically work. So after that, we're left with emailed petitions I guess.

I've got bug report 158874 and bug report 163663 along with a bunch of forum activity on this issue. Slowly but surely I'm losing my ability to communicate this issue to you guys.....
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
The Initiative.
#35 - 2013-07-04 06:19:54 UTC
CCP Habakuk wrote:
For those, who did not receive any replies to bug reports at all: Please make sure, that the e-mail address is active, which is connected with your account.


I did not get an update when 143109 was flagged as not reproducable on the bugs front page. This is probably because it was attached to a defect. As a matter of fact, when looking at the report it self, it still says attached to defect.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#36 - 2013-07-04 08:49:02 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
pmchem wrote:
I thought about filing a bug report about not being able to report bugs for two weeks but then realized it would be like some of my other bug reports and never read/acted upon/followed up anyway.

Instead it sounds like we should just post gamebreaking bugs in public instead.

Here's some of my recent favorites which CCP never bothered to reproduce, fix or reply to (pick one):

bug 162983, character missing in docked list. logging in multiple clients sometimes you cannot see a character (of yours) that you KNOW is docked in the same station as you (because you have both clients open), despite that character showing in local. ccp closed it because they couldn't reproduce and LALALALALA THERE IS NO RACE CONDITION IN THE UI I CANT HEAR YOUUUU

bug 162982, a bug IN THE BUG REPORTER. when you have multiple accounts/clients, and you use the IGBR, and attempt to submit a bug report, the default account name may be a different account than the character/account you're logged into! while not harmful, totally absurd to have bugs in the bug reporter. gg CCP. status: ignored

bug 161967, standings not displaying properly in local. when you login the local list often has way too many people displaying as neutral instead of proper standings, and you have to minimize/remaximize local to correct it. didn't want those standings anyway. old, obvious, and annoying bug? ccp knows what to do -- status: ignored.

Have fun with jira. I suggest you do not import any of the old bugs, and chalk up the ignoring and non-fixing to the infrastructure transition instead of having insufficient staff handling reports of players who bother to go through proper dev channels to help you fix this damn game.



So, I had a look at your bug reports. The non repro one - 4 separate testers tried to repro with the information you gave, and couldn't. That's a nonrepro over 23 separate attempts using varying conditions. Note the "sometimes" in your statement about the defect - some issues with varying repro rates can be very difficult to reproduce and we only have so much time to allocate to each issue.

The issue you find with the bug reporter isn't actually an issue at all, it's by design, and ultimately changing anyway.

Unfortunately the 3rd issue just looks like it hasn't been gotten around to yet. It's not that it's being ignored, but we are only so many Smile It is very well written though - kudos to you!


seriously, the local status not refreshing is not yet handled?

it was reported after last year summer update!!!!!!!!!
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#37 - 2013-07-04 08:52:20 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I made a couple of bug reports on my Dscan needing to be opened up every single time i undock..

Both times the replies i got were "No it doesn't"


I wasn't impressed.

i reported the same issue after winter update, attached to a defect, then supposed to be solved in "andrea" update => still not working.......
Sturmwolke
#38 - 2013-07-04 10:02:42 UTC
How will this migration improve bugreport feedback to player who submits bug reports?
I've had bug reports submitted, showed fixed/attached to a defect in one expansion ..... then the next expansion, rinse and repeat ..... then the next expansion, rinse and repeat on the SAME ISSUE.

That begs the question on how this new system will track the same defects over multiple expansions?
DJ BASIL
Recon Mercenary
C.R.A.B.O.R.
#39 - 2013-07-04 10:38:49 UTC
Quote:
The first bug reports were filed on 15th November 2003 as a test to the system. The first player filed bug report that we found was bug report 62, filed on the 26th October 2003


I was taught in school that order
September 2003
October 2003
November 2003
December 2003

fix it!
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
The Initiative.
#40 - 2013-07-04 11:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rutger Janssen
seth Hendar wrote:

it was reported after last year summer update!!!!!!!!!

That's nothing. Ever tried dragging a stack of ice products on another stack in a fuel bay, so that it wouldn't fit? You'd have noticed you don't get a set quantity message. November 2010 (and it was already known)

Or even more obvious, corp transactions, buy OR sell (not both) all wallets show only the oldest results. December 2010

Junior account can't see corp shares unless he has take access to 1 wallet. February 2011

Then a couple more but those are only since June 2012.