Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Summary overview

Target painters have always bothered me... they don't really fit, do they? I went and had a close look at them, and came to the conclusion that, while they have some of the characteristics of EWAR, TP's are really much closer to weapon upgrades or the common pool webs, points, scrams, nos's, neuts etc. than to EWAR mods.

That led me to the conclusion that they should be reclassified, and that Minmatar should receive a new form of EWAR. Since TP still have a place, though, I figured that they should be treated as common pool mods, kinda like warp disruptors, webs etc., because they aren't quite weapon upgrades either.

That leaves a new system for Minnie, and what I propose is effectively a resistance dampener.


Detailed considerations

1. TP's - EWAR, Upgrade or Common?

Apart from TP, the other three EWAR systems share a number of common factors. They tend to:
a) support the racial combat style;
b) they effectively "debuff" the enemy ship by shutting various systems down or reducing their effectiveness;
c) there are generally mods that can counteract them; and
d) fluff-wise, they tend to counter the racial enemy's abilities.

For example, Gallente tend towards close-range brawling, hence their RSD's force the enemy to come closer by debuffing sensors (a, b). They can be countered by sensor boosters (c) and, since Caldari have a reputation for long-range missile stand-off, are designed to counter their racial enemy (d).

TP's only really meet b) above. Minnie combat style is all about flexibility, so they don't really help there. They cannot be countered, and they don't provide much of a counter to Amarr either, so they fail on a), c) and d).

Weapon upgrades directly improve weapon characteristics. A BCU boosts rate of fire and damage amount. If you're shooting a torp at a frigate, you're going to do exactly the same proportional damage with or without the BCU. In addition, weapon upgrades only boost the ship they're fitted to, so it's pretty clear that TP's aren't really weapon mods either.

Common pool items, however, like scrams and webs have a lot in common with TP's. They all adversely affect an enemy ship (killing warp drive, cap etc.), those effects are beneficial to all members of the friendly fleet (enemy can't run, shoot back, run mods whatever), and they're all only applicable under certain circumstances:
* nos's don't help Minnie much against Amarr,
* neut's aren't too terrible to Minnie ships or Caldari missile boats, or to passive/buffer tanks,
* points/scrams are only relevant if the other dude actually wants to run away (otherwise it's just draining your cap!), and
* webs are most effective when stuff is small, fast or escaping, while almost irrelevant if you and enemy are both brawling BS's and committed to the fight.

TP's adversely affect the enemy (boosting their sig, making them easier to hit and taking more damage), the effects are beneficial to almost anyone who's shooting at that ship, and they're primarily useful under limited circumstances (e.g. frig gangs shooting up lone BC's aren't going to get much joy from TP's).

Based on the above, I really think that TP's should be reclassified as common pool items, and that Minnie should get some new EWAR.


2. Minnie's New EWAR

But what should they have, I hear you say! Resistance debuffers, I answer.

Going with the "ewar definition" from section 1 up top:

a) Amarr have always (in my experience anyway) been well known for their massive, high resist armor tanks. What better EWAR for Minmatar than something that debuffs those resists, making it easier for the Minnie "flexible is best" combat doctrine to chew through them. It also makes it easier for Minnie hulls to survive (as a general rule, Minnie aren't quite as tanky as Amarr).

b) With the exception of resists, pretty much all ship systems already have some form of available debuff. Speed has webs. Warp has scrams. Sensors have ECM and RSD's. Guns have TD's (and I seem to recall reading that CCP is planning on extending their effectiveness to missiles as well). Drones are destroyable, and have lame UI controls besides. Cap has nos's and neuts. It's all there... except tank. Since I can't think of a semi-reasonable pseudo-science explanation for reducing the amount of shields/armor, reducing the resists will work just fine. And it ties nicely into the Minnie-Amarr war because of Amarr's big armor tanks.

c) There are tons of resist mods out there already, so counter-mods are already in existence and won't need to be added.

d) As noted, a resist debuff hits directly at the Amarr, so the fluff works quite nicely.


3. What should change?

As noted, TP's should become common pool, but basically, nothing will have to change here. The new EWAR mods will need to be designed and tested. Minnie ships with TP bonuses will switch over to resist debuff bonuses. I can't think of any other changes that will need to be made.

I thought that maybe without bonuses, TP's would need to be buffed, but on examination, I decided that it would probably be fine as is. Even comparing completely unbonused TP's to bonused TP's, I only came out with 4%-5% variations on effectiveness even under ideal conditions. If CCP's really concerned, they can always give TP's a small buff.

I know it'll need a fair amount of testing for balance, but I think it's got a lot of potential. Comments?

I suppose I wasn't particularly clear with a). In most ways, a) is just as much about forcing the enemy to play your way as it is about boosting yourself. Gallente RSD's force Caldari in close range. Caldari ECM gives Gallente the finger and lets them fight at close or long range without being overly punished by the Gallente blasters.

As such, given that Minnie guns track way better than Amarr, it makes sense for Amarr to have TD's to nerf Minnies gunnery down to sub-Amarr levels. That also fulfils d), sorta. Range control, like cap war, cannot be limited to a single race or it would be massively OP. Apart from those two, Minnie's big advantage is their gunnery, so it would make fluff sense for Amarr to nerf that. d) fulfilled.

It's a lore thing. Think about it, Caldari can totally blind a ship, Gallente can cut targeting to nothing, Amarr can make guns worthless, and the back water Minmatar call their laserpointers EWAR.

Tracking disrupters are nice on Amarr ships because you can make ships track worse than you upclose or out range them depending on how they're fit. TP are good on Min ships for lighting things up for arty or an improvised tracking enhancer for a swarm.

A) God no. Turning off someones health doesn't strike you as OP?
B) We call those weapons. They counter tank very well.

D)The fluff where wizards are now in the employ of Min ships?

TL:DR

Resistances bonuses just took a nerf if you recall the changes that came with Odyssey. How do you plan to balance this new (and wildly overpowered idea IMO) against ships that have no bonus to resistance? Nope. You want to counter Amarr armor resistance bonuses?

Bring more guns.

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You can't really complain about Target Painters at all. They have drawbacks like any other module and benefits as well.



Proof of this would be more welcome than conjecture, as tracking disruptors affecting missiles makes no sense. Missiles have no optimal range nor a tracking property. Why do TD need to affect missiles anyway? It's their drawback. They're only useful against turreted ships, like target painters have drawbacks (ineffective when used with turreted ships and less effective on smaller ships in terms of damage application) or sensor damps have drawbacks or neuts/nos have drawbacks.

And for the record, any sort of capacitor warfare can be considered "EWAR" against tank, no cap = no reps, remote or local is irrelevant. The only exception to that is passive shield tanks that can actually withstand the incoming DPS to rep itself with the base recharge rate; Drakes can do this though I know of no others but I also don't fly those Caldari dishonor boats). Don't forget those pesky Ancillary Shield Boosters that use 0 cap ( and yet Ancillary Armor Reppers are still cap hungry little *****) ..moving on.



This is as ludicrous as the idea of a tank debuff. Did you forget that Amarr weapons are also the most cap hungry over all others? So Minmatar can now neut, web, and TD the **** out of the slowest, most cap reliant ships that just also happen to have the worst damage application?

You sir, get an F in Rebalancing EVE 101.

CCP, please ignore this and move on to Pirate Faction/T2 Tiericide.

I think EWAR in general needs a huge re-balancing and overhaul.

As it is, Caldary get the best ECM, Amarr get an ECM that works only on some ships, Gallente get a 'meh' ECM, and Minmatar's ECM is just a joke.

Why not just make all the ECM general pool, and ECM boats get a bonus to any form of ECM? This will absolutely **** off any blackbird pilot, but it makes more sense IMO. Just because I chose to fly Amarr, I can't fly an ECM ship to counter missile ships?

Theres also the "Caldari get the best Ewar" which is true in a lot of circumstances especially with how easy it is, but they also have only one Ewar when everyone else gets 2.

TDs only work on some(most) ships, but neuts work on everyone. Galente can scram out past point range and point from 100km which combined with damps is killer, Tars webs can match that range. ECM is easybutton but not winbutton.

Neutralizers are fairly worthless against a passively tanked shield fit, have no effect on missiles or projectile turrets. Cap boosters will also negate their effects so long as you have booster charges loaded to inject. So no, they don't work on everyone.

ECM is not an easy button. It's just a button that you push, like TD or RSD or any other active module. It has the drawback of not always doing something however. I find it extraordinary that people will ***** about ECM after it's already been nerfed and Remote Sensor Dampeners do the same ******* thing and will not fail.

Other than killing off Invuls and even DCU at times, not to mention scram/web/prop. Boosters burn up quick under bonused neuts and also distract the pilot because he has to boost as his mods are cycling so it is having an effect. Granted if you come up against an SPR Gila youre out of luck but generally if youre fighting an SPR Gila youre probably doing a gank anyway.

I tend to agree that TP's aren't really Ewar. I would class them support, like Remote Sensor Boosters, Remote Tracking Links, Remote Repair...

It does operate as Ewar in a way though. The signature bloat likely equates to the same difference as reducing resists by some small amount.

You forget transversal speed. TPs provide the ability to go fast and still hit with artillery, which traditionally is the main Minmatar weapon system. The speed of the ship and the range of the artillery provide the flexibility. Because of transversal, webbing the target means webbing yourself. Minmatar don't like to be webbed, so they need TP to stay in their operational envelope.

Minmatar use long range webs defensively, in order to counter Amarr fast movers and shape the engagement.