Player Features and Ideas Discussion

QFT
I would really love to see that #1 happen. (no sarcasm - seriously meant)


Nonetheless, giving each industrial ship a speciality in any way is better than the same old we've had for all these years. And personally, I could care less if I had to cross-skill, skill +2 months, etc. - It's part of the game.

As long as the ship does the job, I'm all fancy for anything.

Exactly my issue. Maybe someday they'll include more reasons to train the others. But on release of this wave of tiericide, there's nothing to get excited about, and I'll still just end up saying Gallente is the only one worth bothering to train up very far, because at the time it takes to get an industrial skill to V, you might as well get the one that gives the most bang for the buck.

Keep throwing this around. If you emphasize the 2,000 m3 enough, it'll become more powerful with every sentence! Also, keep ignoring the advantages the other races bring to the table and continue to bash on one stat, so as to have an objective argument!

Alright, besides 2km3, what reason do I have to use the Bestower? It's got about the same tank as the Iteron V, less mids (the Iteron can fit a better shield tank while still fitting max capacity), and lower agility. Now humour me, aside from a bit more cargo space, why would I take a Bestower?

Same argument applies to the Badger MkII, except instead of cargo, the badger gets one more mid. Okay, the Badger tanks a bit more, but has slightly less cargo.

Now, the Iteron V isn't objectively better than either of the others. Simply the differences aren't large enough to warrant going for a Badger/Bestower over an Iteron V when if you go the Iteron V route, you get access to 3 speciality ships.

The Minmatar do have their nice niche as being the fastest. I can appreciate that. But I also appreciate the fact that they too get a speciality ship that also rewards choosing them.

The only place I'll throw the Caldari a bone is with the Badger. It gets great hold size, and still has plenty of mids to fit a generous shield tank. I might fit one out with an LSE, 2 invulns, an Afterburner and the sort... when I'm not just using the cloak+MWD trick.

Actually it's closer to 3,000 m3, not 2,000. And when considering a single Industrial line, which is somewhat ridiculous in and of itself, considering that it takes ~15 minutes to cross train, you have to consider the entire line. For Amarr, the Sigil, with its 6 lows is going to have the largest tank of those small, fast haulers, and for Caldari, the story is even better since the Badger I holds a fuckton of cargo and will have the mids for a nice sized shield buffer. Comparing the "big" ships, Bestower holds more, and has more velocity than the others. For Caldari, it has a whopping 7300 base cargo, leaving the lows completely free for nanos, istabs, ODs, etc.

Then, again considering the whole line, I gain access to their T2 ships, where the Prorator holds the most of the BRs with 11,900 m3 in a stupidly fast aligning, warping and cloaky BR. Granted, the Crane and Bustard could use some love, but at least the Crane can hold over the 10k m3 "magic number." If we want to consider the DSTs, which we really shouldn't, since they're all pretty terrible, the Impel can fit a ~150k ehp tank if needed, and the Bustard has the option to carry a modest amount with a fairly strong tank--but, as you're aware, if you're hoping to survive a gank in these ships, with their painful align times, then you're probably doing it wrong and will be dead shortly thereafter.

I won't talk about the virtues of the Providence (being second fastest and second tank) or the Charon holding the most at Freighter IV than the rest can hope to carry at Freighter V, since the freighter trains are somewhat their own skill trains now and only require Industrial III.

Anyway, I get that some people don't see the virtues in the other ships--instead loving to bash in on a single one-dimensional stat--but they are there. If you don't find value in training the others, then train Gallente. This game is about choices, and the other lines do present choice in their speeds, relative carrying capacity, EHP, align times, etc. Some people don't like that these differences exist and want every ship line to be-or-less the same. That was their first draft, and it was pretty clear that marginalizing many ships to keep 8 ships of more or less the same brand of white bread was not ok with the community.

Rise and his team worked tirelessly to infuse the lines with character and differences that are not gamebreaking, especially considering that it's a matter of ~15 minutes or so to train into each line. I do think there's some work left to do, of course. I think Amarr should definitely be given another high slot to be able to join the lolpvp fleets that will occur (there's probably some issue with allowing the PG for lasers, but I'm confident CCP could work it out). I think Minmatar should go ~0.5 to 1 AU/s faster than the others to further differentiate the lines, make their "speed" label compelling and enhance their character. I think Gallente, conversely, could perhaps go ~0.5 AU/s slower than the others, so we'd have fast, medium, and slow hauler lines, and lastly, I think Iteron V could maybe be reduced to 35,900 m3 total capacity so as to block that last GSC. I understand CCP would be hesitant to do this, and I don't necessarily think it's warranted, given the relative strengths of the other ships.

No. That goes right back to the homogenization that the game needs to get away from.

They still seem to be merely beginner's disposable joke ships for mission grinding.


Anyone with any sense would use a freighter or orca for hauling and not these "gank me" pinatas.

And you validate my point as joke ships, as in the joke is on you if you fly one with more than 100 million isk value inside.

Btw, many received a free ship that required only spaceship command level 1 training, that can haul 3000+ m3 with 60k ehp. Perhaps that's the biggest joke of all.

So now you have made Bestower best cargo capacity, rather than Iteron, you will be giving a skill refund to all players who trainined Gallente V for cargo capacity, right?

Seriousy, you just downgraded a 20 day train skill. Either fix that so it remains best capacity, add something useful like Ship Hauler Bay (50,000 m3 ships ONLY so an iteron can move a packed battleship), or give up a skill refund so people can swqritch to the new flavour of the month ... Amarr haulers.

I love the idea, but taking the top cargo ship off Gallente after so many years and giving it to another race is just a bad call, and a slap in the face to all those players who trained Gallente V - who now see everyone else flying thier ships with Gallente 1.

Iteron V needs to stay top cargo, or fair's fair, skil refund option.

What's your flow of logic there? T1 industrials remain as an enabler to haul loads from 2k-30k with a skill investment of a few minutes and can do so faster than the larger alternatives you've mentioned. There is widespread usage of this range of hauling vessels which benefit a large number of players. This especially includes new players who are easily put off by long training times for basic functionality and can easily accumulate over a couple thousand m^3, regardless of isk worth. Additionally they greatly enable WH dwellers who deal with mass limitations and frequently find larger tools unfeasible.