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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials, Round 2

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Azrin Stella Oerndotte
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#341 - 2013-06-27 14:06:11 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Today's update:

We are going to go ahead and bump the unpacked volume on the Hoarder significantly (up to 400000) to avoid any major issues with compression. This gives it the same packed volume to cargo ratio that the Iteron V has currently.


Can you promise that all those SMA's with hoarders inside of them won't explode? Roll

Poor WH people, not that I see much use for it in WH's.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#342 - 2013-06-27 14:07:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Today's update:

We are going to go ahead and bump the unpacked volume on the Hoarder significantly (up to 400000) to avoid any major issues with compression. This gives it the same packed volume to cargo ratio that the Iteron V has currently.

One of the most recent posts mentions increasing the bonus per level from skills for the special bay haulers, and I was thinking the same thing. I'm going to increase the skill bonus per level for all the special bay haulers from 5% per level to 10% per level, and reduce the base bays to give basically the same potential bay size as before. This means you will still get an improvement at level 1 over any normal hauler, but you have to invest SP to make the difference quite as big. This seems especially appropriate since these ships don't have to sacrifice lows to reach the same capacity.

I talked with our story team about renaming and they are going to think about it and get back to me. As I said before, there are problems with both sides so I've just left it in their hands and will report back to you guys as soon as I know more.

As always, thanks for the feedback o/

edit: Also I want to acknowledge all the ideas around converting the special bay haulers to ORE, or any other similar solution. I completely understand where you're coming from but this simply isn't possible. It would either require an enormous investment by our art teams, which we don't feel is worthwhile, or would mean some kind of hacky re-texturing type approach, which we feel is ultimately bad for the game (we have standards okay). This is why we were originally hesitant about giving anything exciting to all 5 Iterons, we knew we didn't like where it would leave us in relation to this stuff. I'm glad that most of you seem to be able to cope with it as it stands though.
Thanks for the update. Any thoughts on giving the Sigil/Bestower an additional turret hardpoint so Amarr pilots don't have to be left out on lolpvp Industrial fleets? The other races each have some capability (BBadger, Iteron, Hoarder) but not Amarr.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#343 - 2013-06-27 14:12:03 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Today's update:

edit: Also I want to acknowledge all the ideas around converting the special bay haulers to ORE, or any other similar solution. I completely understand where you're coming from but this simply isn't possible. It would either require an enormous investment by our art teams, which we don't feel is worthwhile, or would mean some kind of hacky re-texturing type approach, which we feel is ultimately bad for the game (we have standards okay). This is why we were originally hesitant about giving anything exciting to all 5 Iterons, we knew we didn't like where it would leave us in relation to this stuff. I'm glad that most of you seem to be able to cope with it as it stands though.


1 - We understand very well that the Art teams have zero time available and that changing industrial hulls is not worthwhile.

2 - We are willing to compromise with you and CCP that changing hulls will never happen.

3 - We are willing to accept these hulls like they are in other line and just have the NPC symbol changed for now.

4 - We are willing to wait for a new "non-hacky" re-texturing / paint job say 1-2 years from now, when the Art team finds time to come back to them.

Just do it right, give these ships to Interbus, compromise. We accept the art problems and what comes with them. Please just put these ships in the correct and logic place were they belong from now on.
No, "we" are not.

The changes being proposed are fine; all the industrials are good (and bad) for various tasks and in their own right. It doesn't make any sense to attach the special-bay ships to the ORE Industrial skill considering that it takes 15 minutes to train into Gallente/Minmatar Industrial for the specialized bay.

Please don't speak for "we" when its obvious that not everyone in the community agrees with your viewpoint.

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Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#344 - 2013-06-27 14:30:25 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
If you drop a cargohold expander II for a DCU2 you will get more hp, but in that case you could drop the cargo expander from all the other hulls and add a DCU2 and get pretty much the same result.


No, not the same result: notice that every "tanky" hauler now has twice as much hull HP as either shield or armor, and that a DCU2 adds 60% hull resists. That means the Sigil's 2400 hull HP becomes 6000 EHP, while the Badger's 2060 only goes up to 5150 under the DCU2. That gap only gets wider when you add in skills or other fittings that increase hull HP. The bigger threat to the Sigil's niche might be the Iteron, whose 2600 hull HP goes to 6500 with a DCU2.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#345 - 2013-06-27 14:33:44 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:

3 - We are willing to accept these hulls like they are in other line and just have the NPC symbol changed for now.


It's fine that you can accept that, but we can't and won't.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Oraac Ensor
#346 - 2013-06-27 14:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Oraac Ensor
Kali Maat wrote:
No more pride to fly the longest train ship in the game (iteron V)
when it will only require gallente indu at lvl1 to fly it
I don't understand the future tense here - Gallente Indy Lvl 1 is all that's required now.

Quote:
The length of the Iteron model should be tied to your skill lvl. (in complete logic with the cargo capacity expansion per lvl)
pls like this post to vote for this cool idea
The flaw in that logic is that the Iteron IV is twice as wide as all the others.
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#347 - 2013-06-27 14:44:49 UTC
I would rather see the specialised bays on the ore ships actually. So +1 for that. But this is a good compromise anyway. Would it be possible if that option could be looked at further down the line though Fozzie or Rise?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2013-06-27 14:52:14 UTC
Tiber Ibis wrote:
I would rather see the specialised bays on the ore ships actually. So +1 for that. But this is a good compromise anyway. Would it be possible if that option could be looked at further down the line though Fozzie or Rise?

Version 2.0 came about because 4 ships were going to be shelved, many said give them special bays. CCP listened and now you cry because you want these ships shelved again and 4 new ships made for ORE.
I like the specialized bays for Gallente and Minmatar, both of those races have more versital ships through out there line up and this adds to there racial flavor.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#349 - 2013-06-27 15:08:43 UTC
I'm not crying. I just think the ore ships need a look in on these new specialised bays. Perhaps we could create an ore ship which has multiple specialised bays, although at lower levels than the specialised t1 racial ships.
Oraac Ensor
#350 - 2013-06-27 15:18:54 UTC
Anela Cistine wrote:
The Itty III has a planetary materials bay, which is great, is that able to hold Command Centers? If not, could you make the standard bay a little bigger so the ship can hold at least 1 command center?

It seems silly for a newbie to have to buy a ship to launch his command centers, then immediately sell that ship and buy a different ship to actually run his planets.

Idea Cargo expanders.
Kiori Misoku
State War Academy
Caldari State
#351 - 2013-06-27 15:25:06 UTC
Much Better!

I like it a lot.

Now they all feel like they have purposes again instead of the massive redundancy that was seeing before.
Elder Ozzian
Perkone
Caldari State
#352 - 2013-06-27 15:31:22 UTC
How about fuel ? What ship I am supposed to use for hauling...
1. Jump fuel,
2. Pos fuel,
3. Siege/Triage/Industrial Core fuel?

I disagree!
Abus Finkel
Caldari Capital Construction Inc.
#353 - 2013-06-27 15:35:10 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Abus Finkel wrote:
I see no reason for anyone to train anything other than Gallente industrials if this goes through. Why use any other races if Gallente can do the same plus much more.


For hauling needs outside of the special bays you will generally get better performance from options other than Gallente.

For a new player they can spend around 23d 16h to get Gallente Industrial V and get
37152m3 general purpose cargo
64500m3 minerals
67500m3 PI
63000m3 Ore

Or they can spend the same time getting for example Amarr Industrial V and get
2049m3 more general purpose cargo
25299m3 less minerals
28299m3 less PI
23799m3 less Ore

Choosing anything other than Gallente seems like a waste of time to me.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#354 - 2013-06-27 15:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ersahi Kir
Taleden wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
If you drop a cargohold expander II for a DCU2 you will get more hp, but in that case you could drop the cargo expander from all the other hulls and add a DCU2 and get pretty much the same result.


No, not the same result: notice that every "tanky" hauler now has twice as much hull HP as either shield or armor, and that a DCU2 adds 60% hull resists. That means the Sigil's 2400 hull HP becomes 6000 EHP, while the Badger's 2060 only goes up to 5150 under the DCU2. That gap only gets wider when you add in skills or other fittings that increase hull HP. The bigger threat to the Sigil's niche might be the Iteron, whose 2600 hull HP goes to 6500 with a DCU2.


You need to look at similar configurations though, and that's what you're failing to do. For my purposes a 'similar configuration' for the industrials is when they're roughly at the same m3 of cargo (the badger will always have the slight lead but they'll be in the same general area of m3 cargospace). The thing is that the badger essentially gets 2 "free" low slots worth of base cargo over the sigil, and the wreath/iteron get 1 "free" low slots worth of base cargo over the sigil. So when you normalize the structure hp to account for this you get these numbers:

sigil (2 expander lows)
1536 structure hp
4267 m3 cargo

badger (0 expanders)
2060 structure hp
4875 m3 cargo

wreath (1 expander)
1800 structure hp
4590 m3 cargo

iteron (1 expander)
2080 structure hp
4303 m3 cargo

assumptions:
hull upgrades 0
industrial skill 5
using cargo expander II lows to 'normalize' the numbers

Now the thing is that after this point the m3 cargo and structure hp remains proportional for every cargo expander II you add. For every cargo expander II you add the structure hp will go down 20%, and the m3 cargo will go up 27.5. Adding a dcu2 after this point to all the ships actually favors the other tanky ships over the sigil because the sigil lost 36% of it's structure getting into the same ballpark cargo size. And with the way these ships are set up the shield buffer takes over because having a rough base 6k hp before resists are taken into account outweights the hp provided by a dcu2. Not to mention that the other ships can get higher shield resists because they have extra mid slots to fit hardeners.

So I think my point still stands. The sigil is only the highest hp tanky industrial at very low m3 cargo. Once you have to start using cargo expander lows/rigs the sigil quickly loses it's place as the most tanky hauler as it has to switch from armor/hull tank to shield tank, where it gets outclassed by ships that can get higher resists on the largest buffer (shield). This seems to go against it's niche, which is why I'm bringing it up here.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#355 - 2013-06-27 15:42:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Unforgiven Storm wrote:

3 - We are willing to accept these hulls like they are in other line and just have the NPC symbol changed for now.


It's fine that you can accept that, but we can't and won't.


That is a shame, I was seeing this has a solution to fix the racial advantage that now the Gallente will have and a door to, in a not so distant future, we could be given a ship freighter (to freight assembled ships around using gates).

Keeping them on the race lines, basically kills that dream, because if having ONE SF was a very little small "maybe", keeping the ships in the racial lines means for sure we will never have one, because if you do one for a race you are forced to do 3 more to cover the remaining races and having in account the art depart problems that will not happen, ever.

...

In MY opinion we were so close to a perfect industrial re-balance that it hurts my heart not getting there. I'm clearly loosing my time by pressing this issue.

Good job, you did all you can. I understand your limitations.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#356 - 2013-06-27 15:46:17 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
[quote=CCP Rise]Today's update:

]
No, "we" are not.

The changes being proposed are fine; all the industrials are good (and bad) for various tasks and in their own right. It doesn't make any sense to attach the special-bay ships to the ORE Industrial skill considering that it takes 15 minutes to train into Gallente/Minmatar Industrial for the specialized bay.

Please don't speak for "we" when its obvious that not everyone in the community agrees with your viewpoint.


It was an abuse to use the word we, yes, sorry all for that. Anyway I had a reason to ask for these changes, I posted something in a blog, my reasoning is in there, maybe you agree with them and change your opinion... or maybe not

http://thelazypilot.wordpress.com/2013/06/27/much-better/

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Purps
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#357 - 2013-06-27 15:51:45 UTC
Doesn't the PI hauler kind of step on the Primae's toes?
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#358 - 2013-06-27 15:57:18 UTC
Purps wrote:
Doesn't the PI hauler kind of step on the Primae's toes?

Look again at the Primae's PI hold size. I don't think there's any ship in the game that doesn't step on the Primae's toes, if you think the Primae's toes are about efficiently hauling PI goods. It's a collector's item, not a ship.
Flux Astraeus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#359 - 2013-06-27 16:21:04 UTC
Can I ask why you nurfed the Mammoth when everyone here across both threads when this topic began said that it was an awesome Indi and probably the best looking in its class?
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#360 - 2013-06-27 16:22:46 UTC
I like the current plan. Lore wise the Gallente are the traders so the have more trade ships.

"Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you."