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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials, Round 2

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Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#321 - 2013-06-27 12:16:06 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Overall excellent changes, just one thing, will the special edition Ity 4 get any bigger Ore hold?


The special edition ships are kind of odd.. Right now I have them set basically as Iteron Vs that are slightly better. I think they should probably stay that way since having a specialized hold seems strange for a ship that goes out for special events to a broad set of players.


Give my Iteron mark IV Quafe ultramarine edition lots of love please.

Big smile

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Kaeden Dourhand
Raven's Sway
#322 - 2013-06-27 12:32:55 UTC
Hey Rise,

A few posts back you mentioned poking Fozzie about the Orca's ore bay being a bit underwhelming compared with the new itty ore bay, is there any update on that?

Overall, I'm really loving the work you've done here so far, keep it up!

Also, I'm with you on the decision to not change ships around and stuff them in a generic ORE/Interbus corner.
Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#323 - 2013-06-27 12:48:40 UTC
Very nice changes. Thanks for taking our feedback!

On thing I was wondering though, wouldn't it be a better idea to move the itty 2,3,4 and hoarder to ORE? People would still have to train another skill, but now they seem to have unique roles. Ore could buy/steal the plans to the ships. But it's just a thought for storyline.

Otherwise, really like the direction. Looking forward to T2 upgrades!

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#324 - 2013-06-27 12:51:27 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
[...] converting the special bay haulers to ORE [...] would either require an enormous investment by our art teams


Do you seriously want to imply that creating a single ship model (or even repurposing an existing model that is not used as a player ship yet - i would expect you to have whole FOLDERS of these after 10 years) falls into the category 'ENORMOUS INVESTMENT' by your art team?

It's not like the 4 special haulers couldn't all base on the same model with different colouring.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#325 - 2013-06-27 13:02:20 UTC
CCP Rise, I'm going to repeat myself here (once) and ask about small and medium astronomic rigs which alter the stats for specialty bays. You don't seemed to have made any comment on that idea, which either means it treads close to some secret plan (and you don't want to touch it), you think it's a terrible idea but don't want to poo-poo on it, or you've simply overlooked it. Or maybe you just don't like me. Sad

MDD
Kaeden Dourhand
Raven's Sway
#326 - 2013-06-27 13:02:24 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
[...] converting the special bay haulers to ORE [...] would either require an enormous investment by our art teams


Do you seriously want to imply that creating a single ship model (or even repurposing an existing model that is not used as a player ship yet - i would expect you to have whole FOLDERS of these after 10 years) falls into the category 'ENORMOUS INVESTMENT' by your art team?

It's not like the 4 special haulers couldn't all base on the same model with different colouring.


CCP's Art team is their most backlogged department.

I've read somewhere it takes about 6 months for changes/new models to be completed, partially because they have so much work stacked up already.

If it were me, I'd hire more art dudes, but hey.
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#327 - 2013-06-27 13:11:12 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
The sigil simply fails to be the tanky industrial because of slot layout. The simple reality is industrials are shield tanks because cargo low slots and cargo rigs are disharmonious with armor tanking. After playing around with the numbers a little it really looks like the the specialty of the sigil is lost under real build conditions.


What happens if you drop a single cargo expander for a DCU2? The Sigil's higher hull HP might push it ahead again. But in principle I share your concern, which is why I mention the cargo expander problem every time I post in this thread.

Also note that there's no need for math, I put the modified ship stats into PyFA so you can play with fittings directly: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=253003
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#328 - 2013-06-27 13:12:16 UTC
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:

CCP's Art team is their most backlogged department.

I've read somewhere it takes about 6 months for changes/new models to be completed, partially because they have so much work stacked up already.

If it were me, I'd hire more art dudes, but hey.


I'd say better art dudes over more art dudes.

Unlike programmers, art dudes are actually dependent on liking their work. Get some dudes who love spaceships instead of more dudes, a tip from the guy in the cg movie industry.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Kaeden Dourhand
Raven's Sway
#329 - 2013-06-27 13:15:30 UTC
You're claiming the current artdudes do not love spaceships?

I agree, good artdudes>bad artdudes, but logically more 'good artdudes'>less 'good artdudes'

I think the current artdudes like spaceships, and do their job very well, and take it seriously, considering the beautiful game that is EVE that we're playing, which is why I said more artdudes. We need more of those awesome artdudes.

Dem dudes.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#330 - 2013-06-27 13:17:56 UTC
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:
You're claiming the current artdudes do not love spaceships?

I agree, good artdudes>bad artdudes, but logically more 'good artdudes'>less 'good artdudes'

I think the current artdudes like spaceships, and do their job very well, and take it seriously, considering the beautiful game that is EVE that we're playing, which is why I said more artdudes. We need more of those awesome artdudes.

Dem dudes.


Good artdudes don't take 6 months to deliver something they like.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#331 - 2013-06-27 13:21:07 UTC
I think our art guys are awesome. Its more about where we want their attention than how much attention they have.

I chatted with Fozzie about the Orca and neither of us feel that any change is necessary for either ship. The Orca does so much more than haul Ore that there really isn't much tension between them.

@ccp_rise
Kaeden Dourhand
Raven's Sway
#332 - 2013-06-27 13:29:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I chatted with Fozzie about the Orca and neither of us feel that any change is necessary for either ship. The Orca does so much more than haul Ore that there really isn't much tension between them.


Understood, and agreed. Just wanted to know for sure Big smile
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#333 - 2013-06-27 13:29:50 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I think our art guys are awesome. Its more about where we want their attention than how much attention they have.

I chatted with Fozzie about the Orca and neither of us feel that any change is necessary for either ship. The Orca does so much more than haul Ore that there really isn't much tension between them.


Oh I almost see a threadnaught coming.

If the following is addressed, it would be fine:

Fuel block hauling, refined ice hauling, pos module hauling.

Yaay!!!!
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#334 - 2013-06-27 13:40:34 UTC
Oh oh oh....

Horder now with ammo bay... The new Goon alt suicide ship.. LOL

I would love to see larger ammo explosion when this explodes,,, maybe having the effect of bomb going off killing the pod pilot in the process.... Would make this ship more nerve racking to fly.

The new Goon Newbie suicide ship.. LOL

Just had to say it.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#335 - 2013-06-27 13:40:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Taleden
CCP Rise wrote:
I'm going to increase the skill bonus per level for all the special bay haulers from 5% per level to 10% per level, and reduce the base bays to give basically the same potential bay size as before. This means you will still get an improvement at level 1 over any normal hauler, but you have to invest SP to make the difference quite as big.


Here's some updated math for anyone curious about how the general haulers now compare to the specialized ones, with and without GSCs, at all five skill levels (edit: including T1 cargo rigs and full T2 expanders for the generalists):

31207 / 32693 / 34179 / 35665 / 37152 -- Iteron V, without GSCs
32929 / 34497 / 36065 / 37633 / 39201 -- Bestower, without GSCs
40207 / 41693 / 44079 / 45565 / 47952 -- Iteron V, with GSCs
41929 / 44397 / 46865 / 48433 / 50901 -- Bestower, with GSCs
45100 / 49200 / 53300 / 57400 / 61500 -- Hoarder (Ammo)
46200 / 50400 / 54600 / 58800 / 63000 -- Iteron IV (Ore)
47300 / 51600 / 55900 / 60200 / 64500 -- Iteron II (Minerals)
49500 / 54000 / 58500 / 63000 / 67500 -- Iteron III (PI)

So even with GSCs the specialized bays are always bigger than the biggest general bays at the same skill level, but not by much in some cases.

Also, I just noticed that the Iteron III and IV rhyme with their new specialties: three for P, four for ore; was that intentional, CCP Rise you sly dog?
Oraac Ensor
#336 - 2013-06-27 13:43:12 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
New names for the iterons with special roles plz. They are no longer merely the 3rd or 4th version of the same ship after all :)

No, the names are fine. You only need look at them to see that they're still versions of the Iteron family - just with different subdivision of their cargo space.
Kaeden Dourhand
Raven's Sway
#337 - 2013-06-27 13:46:24 UTC
Taleden wrote:
Also, I just noticed that the Iteron III and IV rhyme with their new specialties: three for P, four for ore; was that intentional, CCP Rise you sly dog?


by that logic, it should've been two for goo.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#338 - 2013-06-27 13:55:16 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I think our art guys are awesome. Its more about where we want their attention than how much attention they have.

I chatted with Fozzie about the Orca and neither of us feel that any change is necessary for either ship. The Orca does so much more than haul Ore that there really isn't much tension between them.


The problem is how WELL it does other things that boost and haul ore. These two things should be the main purpose, and the secondary functions should have other ships as competitors. Ideally the Orca should be only used for boosting and long range mineral/ORE transport. The Rorq should be a solution to import/export via the compression role. Also it should be made possible to compress in highsec also. Thus making compressed ORE the best solution and removing the needs for 425mm work arounds. Some BPO for compressed minerals might be a good second tier solution, thus making ORE bay and Mineral Bay in Industrials in general really useful.


A concept that was mentioned in discussion was to make low sec "safe" for neutrals during incursions. Thus allowing temporary opening up for import and export in the period of the event. So the winning faction would spawn security. This would also be linked to the permanent FW location. Not sure where this idea originate, but the temporary access to low sec might be a really useful way of spreading and populating it in a more organic way. The added import/export benefits would be a bonus feature.
Oraac Ensor
#339 - 2013-06-27 13:56:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Renaming strikes me as messy, but I'll bring it up with our story department and see what their opinion is.

The names are fine.

Leave them as they are, there is no conceivable reason to change them.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#340 - 2013-06-27 14:02:16 UTC
Taleden wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
The sigil simply fails to be the tanky industrial because of slot layout. The simple reality is industrials are shield tanks because cargo low slots and cargo rigs are disharmonious with armor tanking. After playing around with the numbers a little it really looks like the the specialty of the sigil is lost under real build conditions.


What happens if you drop a single cargo expander for a DCU2? The Sigil's higher hull HP might push it ahead again. But in principle I share your concern, which is why I mention the cargo expander problem every time I post in this thread.

Also note that there's no need for math, I put the modified ship stats into PyFA so you can play with fittings directly: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=253003


If you drop a cargohold expander II for a DCU2 you will get more hp, but in that case you could drop the cargo expander from all the other hulls and add a DCU2 and get pretty much the same result.

The problem that I was pointing out is that all the shield HP's are very close together for the industrials, and when you add in the extra mid slot(s) for hardeners the other ships will pull away in EHP over the sigil. The sigil doesn't distinguish itself as a tanky industrial until the cargo amounts get small enough that it can use all 6 lows for an armor tank (800 mm plate, 4 hardeners/eamn, dcu2). Once the m3 that need to get hauled gets much over 2625 the sigil role just falls apart because it has to switch from a armor tank to a shield tank, but it lacks the slots to get good shield resists.

The badger niche of highest max cargo is retained across similar configurations, the wreath niche of fastest remains across similar configurations, but the sigil niche of highest ehp falls apart at very models m3 totals (~6k m3 I think). That's the problem I have with the current sigil slot layout.