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Is the Minmatar Battleship line worth the training time?

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Aplier Shivra
#21 - 2013-06-25 14:56:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Aplier Shivra
As a pilot who went for the command ship route, I can tell you that you'll be able to effectively fly a BS in PVE much, much sooner. CS's are generally a good bit tankier than BS's, due to tanking hull bonuses, T2 resists, and better sig/speed tank, but they'll need a lot more support skills to come near the mission running speed of a BS, and a BS with that level of support skills will be able to kill fast enough that their DPS becomes their tank. The two main advantages I can think of for using a CS in PVE over a BS is that A) medium guns means good damage application against any sized target, and B) it's more fun to be an in-the-fray brawler than to MJD out to 100km and snipe your way down the target list. However, from an efficiency standpoint, these two things are still vastly overshadowed by the fact that even with your large turret/battleship skills at 4 and using meta 4 weapons, a BS will run missions faster than a CS, and for a fraction of the training time.

EDIT: Just want to add that I made the same combat-focused decision as you, but in the Amarr line, and am absolutely loving my Absolution
David Kir
Errantry Armaments
#22 - 2013-06-25 15:08:29 UTC
Aplier Shivra wrote:
As a pilot who went for the command ship route, I can tell you that you'll be able to effectively fly a BS in PVE much, much sooner. CS's are generally a good bit tankier than BS's, due to tanking hull bonuses, T2 resists, and better sig/speed tank, but they'll need a lot more support skills to come near the mission running speed of a BS, and a BS with that level of support skills will be able to kill fast enough that their DPS becomes their tank. The two main advantages I can think of for using a CS in PVE over a BS is that A) medium guns means good damage application against any sized target, and B) it's more fun to be an in-the-fray brawler than to MJD out to 100km and snipe your way down the target list. However, from an efficiency standpoint, these two things are still vastly overshadowed by the fact that even with your large turret/battleship skills at 4 and using meta 4 weapons, a BS will run missions faster than a CS, and for a fraction of the training time.

EDIT: Just want to add that I made the same combat-focused decision as you, but in the Amarr line, and am absolutely loving my Absolution


Part of the reasoning behind my love for the CS is the fact that the new skill requirements allow me to train for all 8 of them at once.
I'd have to endure more than a month of social-related skills, but then I'd be able to fly all the Command ships.

Then again, you're right: a well skilled battleship is undoubtedly an endgame PVE machine, at least at Subcap levels.
I'd be quite more eager to train Minmatar BS V, if the respective T2 line wasn't blessed with suck.
I lay all of my hopes in the next expansion's T2 rebalance.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#23 - 2013-06-25 15:15:40 UTC
David Kir wrote:
I'd be quite more eager to train Minmatar BS V, if the respective T2 line wasn't blessed with suck.

I guess you're talking about the Vargur? What's so sucky about it?
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-06-25 15:22:52 UTC
Min BS also gets you the Vindicator and Bhaalgorn fyi.
Maelstrom with BS at V is a beast and worth the training. Typhoons are a bag of fun and make for some great fights. Tempest like many have said is meh. The Vargur is a fantastic pve boat, but sensor strength makes it a juicy target.
Also there is Mach.
In short, I don't regret for a moment maxing out Min BS and Large Projectiles.
Aplier Shivra
#25 - 2013-06-25 15:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Aplier Shivra
David Kir wrote:

Part of the reasoning behind my love for the CS is the fact that the new skill requirements allow me to train for all 8 of them at once.
I'd have to endure more than a month of social-related skills, but then I'd be able to fly all the Command ships.

Then again, you're right: a well skilled battleship is undoubtedly an endgame PVE machine, at least at Subcap levels.
I'd be quite more eager to train Minmatar BS V, if the respective T2 line wasn't blessed with suck.
I lay all of my hopes in the next expansion's T2 rebalance.


Well, one thing you could do is spend a week and a half to train Large Projectile Turrets and Minmatar Battleships both to level 4, which despite being about 15-20% less dps than BS 5/T2 guns would still be good enough to do level 4's. And then run level 4 missions for a week or two and see how it feels to you, while training up support skills that both the BS and CS would benefit from. Then you can decide if you want to stick to the BS line and train your way up to a T2 Mach, or work on command ships instead, and if the latter you'd still have a decent mission ship to earn some money in and get used to each mission's spawns/triggers/tank requirements/etc. while you wait the two months for CS skills to train. And of course, this is from a pve point of view, I can't particularly comment on which would be better/more fun for pvp.
Ginger Barbarella
#26 - 2013-06-25 15:32:12 UTC
David Kir wrote:
There's nothing wrong with being part of a bigger entity, it's just not my thing.



I agree, playing your own game is REALLY over-rated. Originality sux.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Looking for Trouble
#27 - 2013-06-25 23:50:37 UTC
dual XL ancil maelstrom pwns the mach.
Noisrevbus
#28 - 2013-06-26 00:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Well, if you want to be an F1 Warrior train Caldari and Amarr BS, nobody uses alphamaels any more, because Rokhs are far better at range and Hellcats (Abbadongs) dunk on them at close range.

The market is so saturated with the LP from FW and insurance from T1 BS now that those who used to fly Maels have upgraded to TFI. It looks like prices are slowly crawling up again but i haven't followed it closely enough to be sure (during the spring certain N-BS and P-BS were down to about 350m or so, but they look to be pushing up toward 500-600m again now). Assuming it stays like this it's not unlikely that we will see a pompous return of the Mael once the TFI stocks have been spent (if TFI no longer cost about as much as Maels).

Also, it's an odd claim saying that Alpha-concepts have been overtaken by Rail and Lasers given the continued prevalence of Alpha among the largest coalitions and even just looking at the fights reported this week (BL and CFC etc.). Most other BS-concepts are just straw-grasps hoping to provoke some fights and getting around some technicality that would enable them to outperform in certain situations (Domis running TSB because they don't need to lock, Rokhs/Baddons/Megas having slightly better buffers and higher re-fire rates when gang sizes overwhelm necessary Alpha by wide margin etc.), but overall Alpha still remain king since most of it's weaknesses are even more severe on the other systems (weaker against TSB, Neut-bombs, other forms for splash, predictable damage and peak resistances, etc.).

I would agree with your comments about the Pest though. It used to be a very underrated ship prior to the June-patch, with it's 1300m/s speed after a couple of nanos. A fine agile little BS for surprising BC-gangs (and more) with at smaller scales. After the patch there are more BS that have been given the speed-treatment and I guess you can question how the Pest fare compared to the Phoon and Raven today. At the very least, it's not as unique anymore.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-06-26 00:05:19 UTC
destiny2 wrote:
dual XL ancil maelstrom pwns the mach.



Is the mach pilot asleep just out of curiosity?
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#30 - 2013-06-26 04:33:47 UTC
Forget BSs. Just fly a ******* Caracal. This game sometimes Roll

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-06-26 05:19:08 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Well, if you want to be an F1 Warrior train Caldari and Amarr BS, nobody uses alphamaels any more, because Rokhs are far better at range and Hellcats (Abbadongs) dunk on them at close range.

The market is so saturated with the LP from FW and insurance from T1 BS now that those who used to fly Maels have upgraded to TFI. It looks like prices are slowly crawling up again but i haven't followed it closely enough to be sure (during the spring certain N-BS and P-BS were down to about 350m or so, but they look to be pushing up toward 500-600m again now). Assuming it stays like this it's not unlikely that we will see a pompous return of the Mael once the TFI stocks have been spent (if TFI no longer cost about as much as Maels).

Also, it's an odd claim saying that Alpha-concepts have been overtaken by Rail and Lasers given the continued prevalence of Alpha among the largest coalitions and even just looking at the fights reported this week (BL and CFC etc.). Most other BS-concepts are just straw-grasps hoping to provoke some fights and getting around some technicality that would enable them to outperform in certain situations (Domis running TSB because they don't need to lock, Rokhs/Baddons/Megas having slightly better buffers and higher re-fire rates when gang sizes overwhelm necessary Alpha by wide margin etc.), but overall Alpha still remain king since most of it's weaknesses are even more severe on the other systems (weaker against TSB, Neut-bombs, other forms for splash, predictable damage and peak resistances, etc.).

I would agree with your comments about the Pest though. It used to be a very underrated ship prior to the June-patch, with it's 1300m/s speed after a couple of nanos. A fine agile little BS for surprising BC-gangs (and more) with at smaller scales. After the patch there are more BS that have been given the speed-treatment and I guess you can question how the Pest fare compared to the Phoon and Raven today. At the very least, it's not as unique anymore.



There is all sorts of screwing around with doctrines going on. Everyone is experimenting with the new hulls. In the last week I have seen:

Rail Rokh, big tank, big sig, slow and bombable
Pulsepocs aka foxcats, usually under triage support
neutgeddons.
Drone domis REALLY damn annoying because if they all assign drones you may not catch the yellow box and getting hit with 750 sentries at once hurts
Rail Mega.....basically an armor Rohk with better tracking.
Cruise Phoons.....yes really, cruies phoon,
TFI......which is a surprising agile boat for a plated battle ship, its easier to fly than the panic geddon or baddons.


We'll see how it all falls out in a couple months but for now the threory crafting gears are griding away.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#32 - 2013-06-26 10:26:10 UTC
No reason why Cruise Phoons should be a surprising doctrine.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Korvus Falek
Depraved Corruption
Lux Inter Astra
#33 - 2013-06-27 02:00:11 UTC
Didnt read everything, but....

Bhaalgorn and Ashimmu are the only reasons to train Minmatar ships =P
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-06-27 02:13:01 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
No reason why Cruise Phoons should be a surprising doctrine.



Considering I had seen cruise missiles in PvP once in hte preceding three years...on a Raven that came point blank to me in a myrm.....yeah that was a little surprising.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-06-27 05:48:07 UTC
David Kir wrote:
Aplier Shivra wrote:
As a pilot who went for the command ship route, I can tell you that you'll be able to effectively fly a BS in PVE much, much sooner. CS's are generally a good bit tankier than BS's, due to tanking hull bonuses, T2 resists, and better sig/speed tank, but they'll need a lot more support skills to come near the mission running speed of a BS, and a BS with that level of support skills will be able to kill fast enough that their DPS becomes their tank. The two main advantages I can think of for using a CS in PVE over a BS is that A) medium guns means good damage application against any sized target, and B) it's more fun to be an in-the-fray brawler than to MJD out to 100km and snipe your way down the target list. However, from an efficiency standpoint, these two things are still vastly overshadowed by the fact that even with your large turret/battleship skills at 4 and using meta 4 weapons, a BS will run missions faster than a CS, and for a fraction of the training time.

EDIT: Just want to add that I made the same combat-focused decision as you, but in the Amarr line, and am absolutely loving my Absolution


Part of the reasoning behind my love for the CS is the fact that the new skill requirements allow me to train for all 8 of them at once.
I'd have to endure more than a month of social-related skills, but then I'd be able to fly all the Command ships.

Then again, you're right: a well skilled battleship is undoubtedly an endgame PVE machine, at least at Subcap levels.
I'd be quite more eager to train Minmatar BS V, if the respective T2 line wasn't blessed with suck.
I lay all of my hopes in the next expansion's T2 rebalance.


T2 line of battleships... For any race:
PvE Marauders - meh... Expensive for what you get but any of them works decently - though other options (mach, etc...) are often held in higher regard.

Black Ops - all 4 about the same with respect to what they can accomplish and are used for but the Panther isn't the worst of the lot by far.

You mentioned earlier that you roam solo and in small gangs. Unless you're running a point-scout alt, a battleship hopping systems solo for PvP tends to not be that great an idea unless you're into collecting loss-mails.

Smaller is better - T1/T2 BC class or the T2/T3 cruisers. They work well and will save you a lot of training time opening up options.
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