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Kronos vs Other marauders

Author
Bane Hellblaze
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-06-24 17:07:42 UTC
hi all,

i plan on using lvl 4 missions to make my isk so im just curious as to if making a kronos my goal later game is worth it, does it do well compared to the other marauders? does do well compared to a vindi? are t2 rails worth the sp grind?

any advice is well apreciated ty =)
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#2 - 2013-06-24 17:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Zor'katar
If this is a long-term goal, keep in mind that Marauders are somewhere fairly high on the list of T2 classes to get a rework, so the ship you're planning on right now may not be the ship you end up getting. Hopefully Marauders will maintain their status as high-end solo missioners, but we don't have any specific information yet on what's in store for them.

More directly to your question, people generally seem to favor pirate battleships (Machariel especially) over Marauders, though if you prefer to loot/salvage as you go rather than following in a Noctis, Marauders in their current form are the right ships. The Vargur is the only one I have experience with. It's an excellent missioner. I've heard good things about Kronos and Paladins as well, and mixed reviews about Golems due to the necessity of micromanaging TPs. Can't speak specifically toward rails.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#3 - 2013-06-24 18:19:29 UTC
I think the kronos is fine, just could use a slight dps bump (change damage bonus to rof like on the mega, and/or add a little more drone bay/bandwidth, launching 4 or 5 sentries would be awesome). And I think all the marauders could use a better tractor beam bonus (salvager bonus would be nice too), as compared to a noctis oh my are they slow.

compared to a vindi the kronos does less dps, but the kronos is more flexible to fit and a bit more relaxed to fly.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#4 - 2013-06-24 18:34:48 UTC
Quote:
If this is a long-term goal, keep in mind that Marauders are somewhere fairly high on the list of T2 classes to get a rework, so the ship you're planning on right now may not be the ship you end up getting. Hopefully Marauders will maintain their status as high-end solo missioners, but we don't have any specific information yet on what's in store for them.


Which is really ****** on CCP's part IMHO. @ $209 (for your sub, give or take) per year you would think they would give you information on something that takes a year or more to plan.

I would only get a Kronos if planning to mission for Gallante corps. It would be a poor choice for the other 3 empires IMHO.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#5 - 2013-06-24 18:42:05 UTC
Bane Hellblaze wrote:
hi all,

i plan on using lvl 4 missions to make my isk so im just curious as to if making a kronos my goal later game is worth it, does it do well compared to the other marauders? does do well compared to a vindi? are t2 rails worth the sp grind?

any advice is well apreciated ty =)


Have all marauders trained and flew all of them.
IMO if you compare marauders among themselves it goes like this Vargur>>Kronos/Paladin>>Golem.

Vargur is the best because it doesn't have a useless bonus for Web like Pal/Kronos. When you use Blasers/Pulses you don't need that bonus because their weapons have already uber tracking. It will be just a waste of Med slot and time.

Vargur is also better because you can select the damage type. Paladin works good only against Sansha/Blood raiders.
IMO Kronos is better than a Pally because of good damage type combo - every rat has a low resist to Kin/Therm damage.

And Golem is the worst of them because missiles can't 1-shot frigs, do a lot of overdamage, bad at applying the damage because of ABs, small sig, defenders (1 defender kills 25% of volley damage, 2 kill 50% of it) and painters.

If you compare Kronos to Vindi - Vindi is much better. Because of damage, agility, drones and 5mid/7low layout.
You can also use rails/4 sentries setup on it. Works good.

Right now it still goes like this Mach>Vindi/Nightmare>>Marauders.

Whatever.

The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#6 - 2013-06-24 20:29:33 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Funky Lazers wrote:

Vargur is the best because it doesn't have a useless bonus for Web like Pal/Kronos. When you use Blasers/Pulses you don't need that bonus because their weapons have already uber tracking. It will be just a waste of Med slot and time.


Oh my, the Kronos(with rails) without the web bonus would be pretty bad at L4, since it allows it to use sentry drones and rails at close range, what is quite a nifty feature as long as you are in angel space with it, the better damage application actually makes it hitting everything for peak dps at nearly any range, what even makes it very competitive against hulls with higher raw dps. While you next to never use a web on the Paladin for L4, it is one of the best bonuses on the hull once you look into incursions, especially in gangs full of paladins that archive hilarious levels of damage application(they kill frigs faster than Legions because they sport twice the dps and even with tachs with 90% webs you don't even notice you fly a sniper setup, because you hit just as hard as other close range ships).

As for relative Marauder balance:

- Golem is a lot better now with the CM buff, utilizing super fast missiles that makes volley counting a thing of the past and hits super hard at any range, instead just up to 60km as before, I'm still waiting for a torp update
- Vargur, it is a good ship, speed, tank, range, dps everything is good, the only downside is that it got a faction ship that does exactly the same just a bit better(quicker lock speed, faster, less sig, higher dps)
- Paladin, in my personal opinion the best marauder, it isn't just a slight upgrade but provides stuff you find nowhere on the other hulls in that combination, since it can field Tachs, is super easy to manage with the cap(compared the the abaddon) and the very best armor tanked incursion ship, it hits super hard at any range(up to 150km with a gank fitting), got a awesome damage application up to 30km(overloaded web range with gang bonuses) and saves 1-2 slots for resistances since it got the T2 resists where it matters the most
- Kronos, the biggest thing about the Kronos back in the days was that you could actually fit it without tons of faction stuff compared to the navy mega or vindi, however the hybrid and BS rebalance made this meaningless, it needs another 2 sentrys and a bit more tracking on rails. It is a bit short on DPS, however it got a very good damage application, hitting out to full lock range not only with guns but also sentry's. The perfect Kronos would have 275m³ drone bay(full wings of short range and long range sentry's), 125m³ band wide and should have the drone optimal + tracking bonus of the domi instead of the active rep bonus. With this it would be a very well rounded sentry/rail platform and while a bit behind in raw dps, making it up with extreme good damage application at any range.

Overall the Kronos is at the bottom, it tanks a bit to good and deals not enough damage. The performance difference is not that big as the numbers might suggest since it got a very good damage application. It will probably see a upgrade till you can fly it, it is even at the bottom of the pile, still a solid ship for L4.

Edit: Since it really interests me, why is the NM better than the Pala(I own multiple palas and nightmares)? Both ships(if you accept the shortcomings of marauders like lock speed and sensor strength) are very good balanced against each other, the paladin does more raw dps(5-6 damage mods for L4 -> T2 rig + 4-5 heat sinks) with the very powerful web, extreme good resist profile for amarr space and only using one slot for a cap mod(right you don't need a cap booster like on the NM) while the NM got the bit better range and quite a bit more tracking(after rigging) appealing dps a bit better at medium range and tanks a bit better with faction shield mods(not a important point for a both, since you rarely need tank if you can pump out extreme dps at any range).

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#7 - 2013-06-24 21:07:09 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Wall of text


1. Please learn to read.
2. I said Web bonus is useless when you use blasters/pulses.
3. OP said i plan on using lvl 4 missions. Incursions =/= missions.
4. Paladin can't change the damage type. Meaning It doesn't work well on most of the missions.
5. Paladin has an increased Expl resistance, which is useless because Angels that do expl damage have EM resistance as the primary highest one. This means Paladin is the worst choice against Angels.
6. Again, useless Web bonus.
7. Golem sucks more now because of defenders. Each defender reduces volley damage by 25%. That's a lot!
8. All in all now Paladin might be the worst Marauder for overall missioning because you are bound to one location. Saying that Amarr agents like to give you Gurista missions, those rats also have extremely high EM resist.

If you're a fanboi of Paladin - good, that's your choice, but please stop misleading others.
I love lasers, but it is the worst weapon system for missions.

Whatever.

RENFANG
SO I HERD U LIEK WARDECS
#8 - 2013-06-24 21:25:57 UTC
Bane Hellblaze wrote:
hi all,

i plan on using lvl 4 missions to make my isk so im just curious as to if making a kronos my goal later game is worth it, does it do well compared to the other marauders? does do well compared to a vindi? are t2 rails worth the sp grind?

any advice is well apreciated ty =)


im not gonna get into arguments with others as really, its all personal preference at this level but here's my 2 cents:

I fly all 4 marauders and currently I like the golem with cruise missiles the most. if you have good marauder skill it gets around 3 59% painters at around 1000 dps with 150km range and pretty efficient ammo usage for using faction/T2 ammo (imo one of the biggest advantages of marauders is ammo efficiency). this usually means fully applied damage on BC's and up and usually 1 volley cruisers and 2-3 volley elite cruisers. very often you will 2 volley- BS as well.

I try to only take heavy BS missions and I fly in caldari space. I don't take missions with a lot of frigates/cruisers as yes they are pretty bad for cruise missiles but guess what; they are also mostly horrible missions anyways so no loss there. who wants to spend 10 minutes shooting at 10k isk bounty frigates? and for those missions with a splattering of frigates/cruisers, just have good drone management; i almost never wait for my drones to finish up frigates.

as for the turret marauders, it really depends on your space. if you're in amarr space the paladin will be the best. if you're in caldari/gallente space, the kronos will probably be better than the vargur. if you're in minmatar space the vagur might be the best (ive never flown in minmatar space).

the reason the vargur is not always the best is because AC falloff is very significant in applied damage. kronos will outdps the vargur almost always in caldari/gallente as the BS ships will try to maintain 40-50km orbits. same with the paladin in amarr space. some of this may be made up with killing cruisers faster but really, the vargur is not a mach. it can't MWD and close distance like it. so it suffers a lot more from the falloff penalty.

all 4 ships are fine for running any lvl 4 mission you want with proper fittings and flying. the golem and vargur also have the best tanks being capless and shield tanked so that also helps if you're into being lazy (i am).

i fly marauders because i do faction missions and can't be bothered to bring the noctis to pull the BS tags. fit an ECCM if you expect jamming.

for kronos vs vindi (which i have a lot of experience with) the vindi can do about 30 dps more than the kronos with a similar tank (vindi needs to fit 3 tank rigs while kronos can fit burst aerator II + ccc). if you rig the vindi for dps then you will have paper tank (you can't do missions like "the assault" or AE with that kind of tank). vindi has higher sensor strength but less targeting range. so for guristas you fit sebo on vindi and eccm on kronos, they end up pretty much the same except the kronos still tanks way better and has tractors and salvagers, i havn't had many missions where the extra dps from the vindi was relevant (maybe in gone berserk?).

TLDR:

overall owning all 4 marauders all with full V skills and implants this is how much i use each one in my space; golem>>>paladin>kronos>vargur. i dont use the kronos much because the golem often obsoletes the kronos, but the paladin has some missions where it is good. i nearly never use the vargur.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#9 - 2013-06-24 22:18:59 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
While what I stated wasn't wrong, I tend to be to post not civil enough after visiting the pub, have my apologies for that. The web bonuses are very useful on both Kronos and Paladin. The Paladin even with the limitation on laser damage types is a fairly effective ship, because it makes it up with raw dps to overcome resistance issues, the resists help it there to drop tank slots and fit more damage. The Golem is fairly good now and I didn't notice much impact of the defender mechanics. I know most people might not dig Amarr hulls like I do, however I consider them as fairly effective and would rate lasers as the most effective L4 weapon system outside guristas, because they can compensate problems with damage types fairly well by raw dps and take advantage of the good range and good tracking.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#10 - 2013-06-25 02:15:52 UTC
Good news, OP. Since no two people agree, there's really no way for you to make the wrong decision. ;)
Bane Hellblaze
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-06-25 02:52:18 UTC
lol yea, maybe ill passivly work that way and see if my kronos will be as sexy after the nerf/buff/clusterfkery
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#12 - 2013-06-25 04:24:50 UTC
It is hard to say what will happen to the marauder class.
But this much is certain.

CCP has hired a bunch of devs and game designers who ONLY view the game through the lens of PvP, and with null sec income generation as a second important function. fozzie came from Pandemic Legion, who focus solely on PvP, particualrly cap warfare recently. rise was a null sec "neutral" who specialized in solo / small gang battles, who made videos of his battles.
soundwave was the goons' intelligence director.

High sec income generation however, in their eyes, is something that is considered an unworthy part of the game, and if possible, something that must be wiped out.

So to expect that any ship will be buffed with high sec income generation in mind is pure fantasy.
Yes, some ship changes have turned out well for PvE (Navy Raven). But to expect the marauder class to generate more mission income after fozzie and rise have had their way with it, well, good luck to that.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-06-25 06:45:40 UTC
Bane Hellblaze wrote:
i plan on using lvl 4 missions to make my isk so im just curious as to if making a kronos my goal later game is worth it, does it do well compared to the other marauders? does do well compared to a vindi? are t2 rails worth the sp grind?


I don't run a lot of missions, but when i do i use my kronos, and i find it's a solid mission boat. Training for a marauder is a big skill point investment, and the Kronos does not perform equally well in all regions.

Hybrids are only able to deal kin/them damage, and the Kronos is vulnerable to e-war, which is a bigger problem in some regions then other.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#14 - 2013-06-25 09:29:32 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
The Djego wrote:
Wall of text


1. Please learn to read.
2. I said Web bonus is useless when you use blasters/pulses.



No it isn't. What you do with a blaster boat is charge NPC packs.

You go under the optimals of the NPCs and they split away from you. 90% web helps to hold more NPCs at short range ammo range, and reduces the number of times you'll have to traverse the sphere of escaping NPCs if you can't hold them all reducing the amount of longrange ammo you need to use and the amount of cap to run the mwd, and reducing or avoiding times where the NPCs are uselessly deep into falloff.

ie even if you never actually shoot the webbed target, the 90% web is a net benefit to applied dps on a blaster battleship because your real enemy is falloff.


I Accidentally YourShip
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-06-25 13:38:39 UTC  |  Edited by: I Accidentally YourShip
Damage selection is not as necessary as people think. The only times not being able to damage select hurts is using lasers against angels. Otherwise hybrids do kin/therm which is a nice combo and is never the two highest resists. I can't think of a rat type that has exp/em as their two overall lowest resists. Kin and therm are usually the second and third highest or one of them is the weakest. There is no problem with hybrids.

To those recommending the Vargur, it is a good ship but outside of angel ships the kronos performs similarly and obviously against their proper targets the kronos stops the vargur. Projectile ammo is not pure damage type, EMP only does 70% EMP, and then explosive and kinetic. The Vargur also lacks the projection of rails with autos. I fly a Machariel which is like the Vargur except faster and I still spend some tangible time burning to targets to apply good dps and barrage is only an option against Angels and Mordus. Shooting barrage against targets strong to explosive is silly.

I have set up battleships with resist profiles very close to different faction battleships and run graphs between Vargur/Machariel and other ships like the Kronos, it is very competitive and in many cases when you take projection into account, superior. Rats do not always start at close range, really the only mission I can think of that rats are very consistently in close range are Damsel and AE. Everything else has some of the rats out at 60+ and that is too far for autocannons to beat rails in applied dps outside of angels with barrage. If you have time to wait for said rats to get into range, you are killing too slow.

My advice is to eventually use all the weapon systems. Pick a space and pick their appropriate weapon system. If you want Amarr space, go with Paladin and simply drop Angels missions, if you want Minmatar, Vargur, if you want Gallente, Kronos, if you want Caldari, Kronos but don't do that, Caldari sucks everyone missions for them.

Edit: Or you can go the droneboat route, a DNI can put out almost 1k dps at 40km, and you can swap to lower damage ammo/drones or spike to project it further. Drones are very good now and since the bulk of your dps with a droneboat is selectable pure types like missiles, I'd say it's extremely competitive with anything except the gankiest of pirate battleships and marauders for missions.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#16 - 2013-06-25 17:46:38 UTC
You could make a strong argument that Gallente BS is the best one to have at 5 if you only get one. It is linked to the best bonus on all 3 pirate ships it is required for(IMO). Also, from my experience, drone boats need level 5 a little more than turret boats. I don't think anyone who has trained the skills to unlock a Kronos wishes they hadn't.