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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

First post
Author
Kami Lincoln
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#181 - 2011-11-07 04:18:53 UTC
Bomberlocks wrote:
Combining my thoughts on all current changes

Hybrids:
I've sperged on the topic of blasters enough by now. I think he changes are very good for blaster and rail boats but they need to play out in game or on sisi with actual fights to see how it plays out. Some people are convinced they are still terrible. vOv. If anything I would give blasters a 10% range bonus.

Tier3 BCs:
This is an accident waiting to happen, a real train wreck of an idea that is going to obsolete whole groups of ships. The Tornado and the Oracle are the worst, but if the damage graph from FHC is accurate, then even the Naga and Talos will be doing stupid damage at ranges that no ships outside Sniper BS can match. Goodbye Sniper hacs, goodbye hacs, goodbye Drakes, goodbye Canes and most likely goodbye cruisers as well.

IMO, these ships should be slow. Slower than normal BCs. That or they need to drop the big gun concept and make them normal med gun BCs, or if they keep the big guns, then BS. No offense to Pattern, but currently I think these ships should not be in the game at all.

Destroyers:
The smaller sig, increased speed and hp are great. They 25% RoF penalty should be brought back, however, as these dessies make frigs, AFs, inties and indeed t1 cruisers completely worthless for the most part.

Is this what EVE is going to be reduced to: gangs of Tier3s sniping or kiting at range with dessie gangs being used as cheap suicide tackle T3 hunters? It's going to make for a lot of tears and a very boring game.

No insurance to suicide gankers:
Don't care. Gankers will still gank the expensive stuff for profit and the cheap stuff for tears.

Apart from the hybrid buff and parts of the dessie buff (and nebulae) I'm a lot less happy about these changes than I was.



Your forgetting, the new Tier 3's will be completely vulnerable to Frigates (No drone bays), Cruisers, Fighters and even to a degree battlecruisers. Without their speed battleships will be able to hit them as well, and with their fragile near cruiser sized tanks, they'll be instapopp'd. So far the only thing Im disappointed with is the "new" Raven, but I'm still hoping it's unfinished.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2011-11-07 04:40:49 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
the only issue i see with these snipey concepts is the fact that they make 4 T2 HACS completely obsolete. what the hell is up with that?



are you kidding me? a HAC can hit cruisers, the tier 3 BCs can't hit cruisers.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#183 - 2011-11-07 05:10:40 UTC
Just curious if anyone has tried them out against their intended victim - battleships? I saw a video of a Tornado v. a sniper Abaddon, but that doesnt really count. Has anyone tried them ac v ac setup, or blaster v blaster, etc? I am curious to see how that goes.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2011-11-07 05:29:18 UTC
yeah right, if you use an oracle at 200km, you are going to hit cruisers regardless of sig.

farther you get the easier you hit. pretty common knowledge there fella
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#185 - 2011-11-07 05:33:29 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Just curious if anyone has tried them out against their intended victim - battleships? I saw a video of a Tornado v. a sniper Abaddon, but that doesnt really count. Has anyone tried them ac v ac setup, or blaster v blaster, etc? I am curious to see how that goes.


Facing 2 tier 3s of the same type and fit against each other is irrelevant. We're testing the balance of them in all situations. Doing a mirror match is entirely dependent on pilot skill, which we are not testing.

I have been wondering about tier 3 BC vulnerability to frigates. tbqh, I could probably kill a Tier 3 in an EAF. Definitely could do it in an AF. Dramiels and Daredevils will eat these things for breakfast as is. They really need a dronebay.

That being said, perhaps this is a stealth attempt at giving EAFs and AFs a role in PvP combat. /tinfoil?

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#186 - 2011-11-07 06:03:45 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:
Just curious if anyone has tried them out against their intended victim - battleships? I saw a video of a Tornado v. a sniper Abaddon, but that doesnt really count. Has anyone tried them ac v ac setup, or blaster v blaster, etc? I am curious to see how that goes.


Facing 2 tier 3s of the same type and fit against each other is irrelevant. We're testing the balance of them in all situations. Doing a mirror match is entirely dependent on pilot skill, which we are not testing.

I have been wondering about tier 3 BC vulnerability to frigates. tbqh, I could probably kill a Tier 3 in an EAF. Definitely could do it in an AF. Dramiels and Daredevils will eat these things for breakfast as is. They really need a dronebay.

That being said, perhaps this is a stealth attempt at giving EAFs and AFs a role in PvP combat. /tinfoil?



Yeah, I understand - my post could have been a bit clearer. I was trying to suggest that someone try a short range T3 BC against a short range BS. And a Long range T3BC v a Long range BS. If they are meant to be anti BS platforms, lets see how they do.
Kami Lincoln
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#187 - 2011-11-07 06:46:35 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
yeah right, if you use an oracle at 200km, you are going to hit cruisers regardless of sig.

farther you get the easier you hit. pretty common knowledge there fella


Not 100% sure, but Im pretty sure I saw the max targeting range on the Oracle at 80km, might have been 60km... getting it to 200km Im pretty sure is close to impossible... and if it isn't, it would prolly be as effective as a battleship so I fail to see the point.Roll
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#188 - 2011-11-07 07:28:27 UTC
The Tornado is a real pwnmobile, if it goes live on TQ unchanged than most people will switch to Tornado and even CCP will have to put a hard nerf on it within a year.

Talos, not so much. Horrible range, since your 'hybrid fix' missed the blasters the damage is uninteresting, a ship that might be the last nail for the gallente ships coffin.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
RONA Directorate
#189 - 2011-11-07 07:32:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Obsidian Hawk
revision 3 for talos.

20 more cpu
25m drone bay
7.5% to tracking.



Initial oracle

change 10% bonus to 5% and add a 5% tracking bonus.
add 15 to cpu.

Initial tornado -

+10% to powergrid.


Quick edit - after going back and looking at the super cap changes and after shooting a dread i left floating in space. Yeah.... I can really see these ships as being cap gankers. trying a buffer tank tachyon fit against a phoenix atm. it is doing pretty good. I have yet to try it against a pos tower with a shield up and some resists.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#190 - 2011-11-07 10:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: AspiB'elt
Again CCP.

You need to make some adjustement with the speed of each class of ship.

- Don't possible to fit one mwd or afterbuner higher than you ship class ( exemple 100mn on tengu etc)
- The speed of BC is to high with mwd ( a lot of cruiser with mwd are slowest than BC, if you check the mass is it no possible).
- Same for some BS (like tempest and machariel).

all skill V, 10 mwd

Hurricane 1311 m/s mass 12'500'000 216'000 m3
Maller 1366 m/s mass 11'550'000 118'000 m3
Eagle 1354 m/s mass 11'720'000 101'00 m3

The BC make more dps than cruiser T2 and cruiser T1
The BC are more tanking than cruiser T1 and T2

The difference of the mass between the both size is to small.

If you increase the mass of the BC, you got a better difference of speed beetween cruiser and BC.

The m3 of the BC are the twice of the cruiser and the mass is about only 10 % more ...

Increase the BC mass by 15 %
Knoppaz
distress signals
#191 - 2011-11-07 11:31:14 UTC
So far I only checked the Tornado and it was a really fun ship to fly. Everything felt just right. Not too flimsy, but no hard nugget either. Speed and agility were a big plus on the fun-factor, but definately not overpowered.
I used a dual 425mm setup and though I don't have much experience with large guns since I prefer frigs and cruiser hulls, the damage was where I expected it and tracking surprised me a bit since I thought it would be worse.
Fitting also seemed to be ok. It can fit a full rack 1400mm, but not without sacrifices, right as it should be..

Summary: Imho don't touch the Tornado and balance the rest accordingly (will test those later).

Knoppaz / distressSIGNALS http://distresssignals.tumblr.com

a capsuleer's way to insanity

Gerri Mander
Doomheim
#192 - 2011-11-07 12:08:11 UTC
Falloff bonus makes Tornado OP - you've effectively created an Angel BC. Not sure the game will benefit from cheap insurable Angel BCs how ever much fun they might be to fly.

Replace with a tracking bonus as at least this is a traditional Minmatar tech 1 bonus.
VeloxMors
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2011-11-07 12:36:37 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
ok, went and tried the Naga. First impression was, if you have fitting issues with this, your skills need work.


Soldarius wrote:
...I started running into issues with grid and CPU both...


Roll
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#194 - 2011-11-07 13:13:39 UTC
VeloxMors wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
ok, went and tried the Naga. First impression was, if you have fitting issues with this, your skills need work.


Soldarius wrote:
...I started running into issues with grid and CPU both...


Roll


I think he meant that at first he had that impression because of the fit he tried... When, instead, he tried to run a sensible fit he started to feel the issues everybody was talking about.
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#195 - 2011-11-07 13:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
It would be best not to release any Tier3 BC with the next expansion.

Initial testing shows that they are horribly balanced, your 'hybrid-fix' is a joke and partly responsible for a broken Talos and possibly Naga while the Tornado was given far too much love.

The balancing obviously needs a lot more work and possibly some developers who are less minmatar-focused.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#196 - 2011-11-07 13:36:12 UTC
I spent a couple of hours on SiSi last night playing with the Oracle, Talos, and Tornado. The Oracle is an amazing scorch-sniper, the Tornado is fast as anything and an amazing skirmish ship with 800's-- as agile as a Vagabond, fast enough to outrun most things that threaten it, good enough tracking/range to blap tacklers that try and burn after it-- it's a beautiful poor-man's Machariel.

Then there's the Talos, which is basically completely useless. Either it fits an armor tank and handles poorly or it fits a shield / nano fit, handles decently, but has the EHP of a wet paper bag. This wouldn't trouble me so much if it weren't for the fact that it seems totally incapable of doing any damage ever. It doesn't do damage to cruisers (cant track well enough to hit them inside its optimal, can't do enough damage to be relevant once it's far enough away to track), it can't hit frigates at all (even from 30+ km with null and a tracking enhancer) and although I guess it can hit battleships / other BCs by the time it gets into range and slows down to non-prop speeds to un-**** its tracking it's usually nearly dead anyway.

If the Talos had a 90% web bonus that allowed it to pin cruisers / bad frigate pilots and blap them the ship would be useful. If it had range bonuses that allowed it to engage with blasters at long enough ranges that its tracking wouldn't render the guns useless, it would be useful. If it kept its current configuration but with enough EHP to go toe to toe with bigger ships it can track, it would be useful. As is it's just awful. The Oracle was amazing for kiting + sniping cruisers and up for ~550 dps. The Tornado is just all-around excellent. I'll confess I didn't test the Naga because it's hideous and the only fit I'd fly would be a rail sniper (boring) or blaster boat (without as much tracking as the Talos, lolol like that's a thing). The Talos was aeons behind the other three ships in terms of usefulness. I was really, really excited about this ship but it looks like in actuality I'll probably fly it once on TQ for novelty value, lose it in the first engagement before I get to do any damage, and then stick to flying a Tornado for the rest of ever.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#197 - 2011-11-07 13:46:11 UTC
The whole "BS guns on a BC" should just be scrapped.

I would rather see a new ship type, and one with unique ships for each faction than for a dumb gimmick and regurgitation of 90% of the ships of the faction.

Rabid Minks
#198 - 2011-11-07 13:51:46 UTC
So far, I like the tornado, I can see a role for it.

But as many others have said, do something about the naga. The current split weapon format with split bonuses does not work. Possible fixes:

-Give dual bonuses to both rails and torps (may make too powerful given the versatility?)

-Make it a dedicated rail sniper ship, lose the torp bonus, add a second rail bonus (but will it be used? Tornado probably better in same role, so only viable to non-minmatar spec'd toons).

-Make it a dedicated in-your-face torp ship, lose the rail bonus, add a second torp bonus

-Make it an in-your-face blaster boat (but infringing on the gallente talos territory)
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#199 - 2011-11-07 14:45:25 UTC
Rabid Minks wrote:

-Make it a dedicated in-your-face torp ship, lose the rail bonus, add a second torp bonus

-Make it an in-your-face blaster boat (but infringing on the gallente talos territory)


Remember though that caldari ships suffer from the same problems of gallente ships, even though they are shield tanked: we have the poorest speed and handling, perhaps comparable to a fully armor tanked gallente ship (Ok, amarr armor tanked ships have worse handling but they have pulse lasers, so it's not really an issue). Making the Naga a close range only ship will require fixes to its speed, handling and weapon systems as well.

Not saying that it's not an option (though I'd prefer versatility since the tornado is excellent both as a skirmisher and as a sniper), but it will need a lot of work.
Aldap
Fearless Tiger.
#200 - 2011-11-07 15:03:57 UTC
I love destroyers, but I think you went a little too far :-) They now take out frigs way too easily. You're going to discourage the average new 'rifter pilots' players in fleets even more.

An interesting article about Solo PvP: http://themittani.com/features/new-eden-solo