EVE General Discussion

Go to any court (with jurisdiction) in the USA and you'll find corporations responsible for employee/customer behavior. The same works for government (kinda). This TOO is how the world works --as it should be. There is both personal and corporate responsibility to deal with issues that are legally and/or morally wrong.

A corporation doesn't need to endorse, let's say for example, sexual harassment to be deemed guilty to some degree IF said corporation is aware of it and turning a blind eye.

Are they responsible for the behavior itself? No.
Are they responsible for not taking corrective action within the confines of their legal entity? Yes.
In some cases they are responsible for educating their employees to not overtly or inadvertently promote this behavior as well.

People can be really stupid, so much so that people can't dress safely. I mean we even have signs telling people "no shoes, no service."

It's not unreasonable to expect CCP to act upon issues that create a hostile or harassing environment for anyone. The problem, in part, is separating run-of-the mill in-game harassment from the real deal.

Also, there is this thing called ETHICS -- whereas a corporation may not be legally compelled to do something but act in a manner that is seen best for its customers, if not the society it affects.

I don't think CCP is the evil one here... but I would not be disappointed to see them be a little more proactive -- as they are in the forums. (examples have been well noted in prior posts).

It does not work better in real life than it does in game, it works the exact same way. I don't have to work at the job I do and if I didn't like the conditions I'd leave. if it were a hostile work environment (which is illegal) that would be different, but Im talking about the minor "banter and BS" issues. As I've told fellow officers, If I didn't like (or at least couldn't stand) the culture of my department (but none of it was a violation of my rights) I'd quit and go work for one of the other 18,000 Law Enforcement Agencies my country has (you think EVE is "white and male", join an American Police Department lol).

In that kind of situation, as in ALL situations (even those that don't involve race or sex or some other status), people just simply have to accept that perfection isn't attainable. That doesn't mean things have to stay the same, but having unrealistic expectations of other human beings is the sure path to disappointment.



How would anything anyone (but maybe CCP) could do have any impact on the "culture" here? How do you use societal or peer pressure on people sitting anonymously at a keyboard in some cave? You think you can convince EVE players (one of the most notorious online communities on Earth) to be nicer to and more tolerant of each other in the name of diversity?

That's probably my biggest bone to pick with this thread, it's pie in the sky thinking. What actual practical steps could anyone take to bring about "more diversity" if the big stumbling block is the community?

It's what I tell people (other "minorities" so to speak) on my job, your legal rights are one thing (just like in game no one can harass you or do certain things or else CCP will chop them up). But beyond that, you're just going to have to learn to live with an imperfect world of imperfect people. That or go crazy fretting that things aren't just like you like them.

So true... half the reason I play PvP games is because i get to kill rude people

I already said as much, numbers. Within the community of the game, 4 in 100 means you are pretty much the definition of an outsider in the context of that social setting.



Given the propensity of just a small amount of people on this thread, who will happily call such people; "nerds" "neckbeards" "cavemen", "racists" "misogynists" "dorks" "losers" "morons" "retards", I'd have to say I understand if they're hesitant to step into that arena, yeah. Mean words aren't exactly only used by one side. HTFU applies equally, of course.

Here's a good example of that.



This person can get that feeling all they please. Doesn't bother me. But it's a pretty good example of demonizing someone who disagrees with you, while patting the other 7 people, who all are constantly just upvoting each other and reposting the same tripe, on the back for being so good at arguing with one guy vs all of them.



No. Respect is earned, not given. You don't get it by being born, you don't get it by breathing, and you don't get it for having $15 a month to pay and log on.



Oh yes, let's not discuss the situation, let's drive someone out, and further reinforce their belief that they won't be treated fairly by the women and the white knights. That will change the minds of the playerbase at large. Yeesh.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Have the discussion. Don't just wave the magic wand of labeling, call them a *insert word*-ist, and claim victory by default. That's not only intellectually dishonest, but it digs their heels in to boot.

I don't quite understand what you mean here.

[/quote]
How has any societal progress been made, ever? You just need enough people, and enough time. It helps if the first few are crazy.[/quote]

Time and people to do what exactly? In real life thingas change when they have to, and many times only after a War (like slavery in the U.S.) or after significant government intervention (like Jim crow laws, apartheid etc etc).

That's what I'm saying, short of CCP doing something (as if they could), what else can be done? do you wardec racists? Do you get Alliances to sign anti-sexism pacts and take their R64 moons away if some grunt player makes a yo momma joke? What?



I get all that. It's a nice sentiment, but it's just a sentiment. As someone who does an "Enforcement" job that aims at specific bad behaviors, I just don't know what some of you think we could actually DO about the situations being discussed that will bring about some kind of change that will attract more "diversity" to EVE online.

The fact is, there is nothing anyone (including CCP ) could do beyond what is already does. CCP already bans racist and sexist behavior in chats/on forums (i remember onces seeing a corp called "The Final solution", it wasn't long before CCP spanked them and took the name away) and many alliances and player groups are highly intolerant of those practices as well. But some groups aren't and you can tell on their (3rd party) comms. Flying around space typing "don't be a sexist douche" in each local chat won't have any effect lol.

Outsider =/= Minority

1. a person not belonging to a particular group, set, party, etc.

Tell me. Since when is gender a specific group, set or party?

I still believe they are belong to the same group as you do, EVE player.

Okay, maybe not to your elite clan of basement dwellers...but you are the outsider there..majority of the people live above ground.

Thank you for calling out the use of "******," by the way. That was exactly on point, and a perfect example of the sort of activism that people on this thread are (however imperfectly) hoping for.



Yes, let's drive someone out and further reinforce their belief that they won't be treated fairly... because their behavior drives people out and further reinforces their belief that they won't be treated fairly. Oh, the humanity! If they can't distinguish between their own hateful lashing out and someone calling them on their behavior, the game loses nothing if they leave. EVE is for adults.

Most people behave that way on the assumption that they are doing so with the tacit acceptance, if not support, of their peers. So if you as a peer point out that it's not acceptable to you (assuming that it is), you change the atmosphere.



I have to admit that I'm fascinated by the tactic of reducing critical, but descriptive adjectives to empty slurs. Please, have the discussion, but leave off any descriptive terms, because some people are too sore to wear the shoes that fit them. This is especially funny when the sore person in question has been freely slinging around all kinds of empty slurs.

[EDIT: for example, the use of "outsider" to represent women implies that the player's sex is more significant than their in-game allegiances or accomplishments. The women in my alliance are a minority too, but nobody would even think to describe them as "outsiders." They're fellow players. They hang out with us. They crack jokes on comms. They run in our fleets. If that isn't "insider," nothing is. The use of the word only makes sense in a context where women are excluded.]

You miss the point entirely. Do you want to ban them, rehabilitate their behavior, or simply remove them from your sight?

Seeing as the game pretty well can't afford to kick that many people out, that leaves two choices.

So, unless you'd like to simply drive them into their groups vs yours, the option to rehabilitate them is the only remaining.

In which case...

Have the discussion. Don't just claim victory by fiat.

Or are we not trying to change minds and improve the game thusly? Are we just here to throw around some denigrating words and demonize others, while patting ourselves on the back for agreement and upvoting endlessly?

Because if that's the case, you're morally equivalent to the people you're hating on.

Basically...he is the outsider here.