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Jita Population Limit

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#121 - 2013-06-09 00:29:06 UTC
Sassums wrote:
Or CCP could spend some money and assign a server more capable or running a higher population cap.
Why should they waste money on such a short-sighted and limited solution?
Haulie Berry
#122 - 2013-06-09 00:45:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Sassums wrote:
People have better things to do than to play jump games hoping they will be allowed into the system next.



Obviously they don't.

Again, the root problem here is that idiots think they "need" to go to Jita, and are willing to queue up to do it.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2013-06-09 00:45:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
AtomYcX wrote:
Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue?
I think it's more that history has shown that it's not a sustainable solution. Throw more hardware at it and people fill it up again, so you have to throw more hardware at it, so people fill it up…

…and soon, you have an EVE cluster where 90% of the investment is in the Jita node and everything else is languishing. Instead, they seem to be focusing on solutions that help all systems, and Jita in particular, by improving the performance of the kind of work that slows that node down.

Do you want to throw increasingly large amounts of money at the diminishing returns that more hardware offer, just to solve this unsolvable problem for one system, or do you learn from that one system and improve your code in a way that benefits the entire cluster? The whole “brain in a box” solution should help any part of the game where there's a lot of pilot set-ups going on (e.g. large fleet jumps/warp-ins and systems with lots of undocking and jumping… such as Jita), and while the work done for that certainly costs as well, it is a more long-term solution that affects much more than just a single solar system.


The issue isn't hardware in itself, but as long as the game mechanics don't change, the only solution is to keep adding hardware.

Just like rubbernecking at wrecks slows traffic, no matter how police trying to move people along, folks will still want to gravitate to the site to have a look.

It's both a mechanics issue (trade alts of various stripes and skills parked in one area for convenience in selling), and human nature in a social game.

Other games don't limit sales to local zones and this Jita problem is the reason. If WoW had what EvE has, the crush of players selling/buying in only faction capital cities would crash the realms daily. Blizzard even diversified the capital cities to the extent of killing off dungeons in MoP (instead of standing in Stormwind and queuing up for them all day) to get players back into the world. It takes such drastic measures to get folks out of a "comfort zone", because they won't change on their own...the PEZ is too good to resist.

Each region has it's own trade "capital", there's really no excuse to not diversify players out of Jita, unless -- again -- it's a hardware/tech issue and one CCP would rather control in one area, instead of letting it creep to different zones. As it will creep, as the mechanics in the game help cause it.

Real solutions aren't going to come without "comfort zone" changes and without changing the trade mechanics so this doesn't keep happening.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#124 - 2013-06-09 00:51:58 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
The issue isn't hardware in itself, but as long as the game mechanics don't change, the only solution is to keep adding hardware.
Eh, no. As already mentioned by the devs, there are other, far better solutions. Redesigning the software to work around its current limitations is far more likely to yield far greater, far more long-lasting, and far more wide-reaching benefits.

In fact, hardware is probably the least useful (and least possible) of all solutions.

Quote:
Other games don't limit sales to local zones
…and neither does EVE.
Haulie Berry
#125 - 2013-06-09 00:57:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Tippia wrote:

Quote:
Other games don't limit sales to local zones
…and neither does EVE.


You're apparently not familiar with this one. He's a themeparker with a preternatural inability to "get" Eve, and is probably hoping the Jita "problem" will be "fixed" by allowing him to purchase anything from anywhere via a universal market and have it delivered to his hangar. Roll


Quote:
It's both a mechanics issue (trade alts of various stripes and skills parked in one area for convenience in selling), and human nature in a social game.


As previously mentioned, the people who are just parked aren't actually the problem. Markets, chat, etc. aren't actually on the same node, and an object merely existing in Jita doesn't actually consume all that many clock cycles.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#126 - 2013-06-09 03:17:39 UTC
Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:
Even making Jita a 0.8 system would give another like 5 or so seconds to a gank right? Even that would help the game a lot. Eve needs more ganks, not fewer. More ganks mean higher prices for everyone (good thing) and fewer idiots mining jita belts (i've seen em, you have too).

Also, maybe removing the clone facilities from the system would help too (i didn't read all the posts, this may have been suggested already).


You really think combat takes less CPU cycle to handle than a ship just passing by?
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#127 - 2013-06-09 03:29:27 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Asptar Monastair wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.


Half of jita residents are spamming bots, they are useless and killing the fun for the rest of us. you need to introduce something to keep the traffic flowing.

Idea: first ~30 min docked in Jita is free, next the clock will be ticking and Concord will charge you ISK for staying more. Make the parking fee for someone staying like 6 hrs idle is big to teach people value of time.


Seeing as how markets and contracts and everything is handled on a different node, and chat is on a completely different service altogether, I would say the most work being done by the node would be on the ships in space. So reducing spammers and other docked activities probably wouldn't make much difference. I could be totally wrong though.
You would be absolutely right. Market, contracts and chat are on other nodes. The load in Jita is primarily traffic related, pilots docking/undocking/jumping-in/jumping-out.

I think you might need to overclock some nodes

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
JamnOne
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2013-06-09 03:59:58 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
CONCORD should blow up anyone loitering at the gate.

Obviously they're up to no good.


Nah - Concord should hire a bunch of players to clear off the gate and keep the traffic moving smoothly. They can earn positive security status as they would be performing a community service.
TharOkha
0asis Group
#129 - 2013-06-09 04:08:04 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.


Maybe you should do something about spam bots rather than punish people actually trying to play the game. Question


THIS..
half of jita residents are just scam / spam bots. im not against scamming, but in Jita it means a serious problem if there is a limit of players. Those bots just occupy free slots from this limit and they actually dont play a game.

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
#130 - 2013-06-09 04:34:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Tronic
CCP Veritas wrote:
People sitting in station chatting contribute practically zero load to the machine running the solar system.


You mean spamming.


Absolutely no chat happens in Jita local.

You know why?

Because its all bots spamming ads and scams.

Chribba has gathered evidence for a long time with his public chat logger for Jita local and nothing has been done.

It's extremely obvious as heck when the same character spams the same message for > 12 hours its a bot.

I'm not even saying its contributing to any server load, I'm just stating that Jita local is useless and may as well be removed due to the fact the number of bots in the channel list compete with the number of bots in certain corps in null.

Edit:

Lets bring out some statistics you cannot deny. Collected by Chribba.

http://themittani.com/features/chribbas-jita-spam-bot-research

http://eve-files.com/chribba/jita2012/ (actual data)

Quote:
The top poster said something 58,724 times and 99.93% of it was repetition, only 40 different unique posts. This single character accounted for 1.83% of EVERYTHING said in Jita local over the span of six months


Quote:
Not to mention the fact that CSM candidate(s) were using these obvious bots.
AutumnWind1983
Reboot Required
#131 - 2013-06-09 04:36:16 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Noddy Comet wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
People sitting in station chatting contribute practically zero load to the machine running the solar system.
Yet they add to the total population limit, correct?
There are X pilots causing load and Y spambots. The cap is at X+Y.



So instead of the useful population of Jita being what the face value is by banning Y amount of spambots, it remains at facevalue - y and CCP is content with this status?

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org
Hrothgar Nilsson
#132 - 2013-06-09 04:48:53 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.

I don't really care one way or the other as I don't use Jita, but what about upping the hardware?

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
TharOkha
0asis Group
#133 - 2013-06-09 05:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Jack Tronic wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
People sitting in station chatting contribute practically zero load to the machine running the solar system.


You mean spamming.


Absolutely no chat happens in Jita local.

You know why?

Because its all bots spamming ads and scams.

Chribba has gathered evidence for a long time with his public chat logger for Jita local and nothing has been done.

It's extremely obvious as heck when the same character spams the same message for > 12 hours its a bot.

I'm not even saying its contributing to any server load, I'm just stating that Jita local is useless and may as well be removed due to the fact the number of bots in the channel list compete with the number of bots in certain corps in null.

Edit:

Lets bring out some statistics you cannot deny. Collected by Chribba.

http://themittani.com/features/chribbas-jita-spam-bot-research

http://eve-files.com/chribba/jita2012/ (actual data)

Quote:
The top poster said something 58,724 times and 99.93% of it was repetition, only 40 different unique posts. This single character accounted for 1.83% of EVERYTHING said in Jita local over the span of six months


Quote:
Not to mention the fact that CSM candidate(s) were using these obvious bots.


I sense conspiracy Evil . Jita has become spam/scam-bot paradise, Chribba has provided obvious proof long ago, CCP ignores it in a long run.

They set up the limit for whole Jita instead, because punish players that actually PLAY is much easier than solve the problem with Jita bots (occupying free slots) once and for all.

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
rswfire
#134 - 2013-06-09 05:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: rswfire
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.


I don't know if it's just me, but it seems like this problem is actually getting worse in the past few weeks. Whenever I log in a character that's stationed in Jita, the log in system tries to get me to move to another system. I won't. I hit ESC and continue to spam until I get in, just like the people do at the gates. I assume this spamming adds some measure of traffic to your nodes also?

The explanation you give is logical and truthful, but it's also only logical and truthful because you don't have the hardware and/or software and/or optimization to make it better. Why don't you address the underlying issue instead so that TiDi does not occur for 2000 pilots? This not only serves Jita but those massive engagements in 0.0, etc.

Just. Fix this. Please.

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Valen Drax
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2013-06-09 06:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Valen Drax
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.

I don't really care one way or the other as I don't use Jita, but what about upping the hardware?



Throwing more hardware at it is not the solution. As it has been said right now the server side is not multithreaded. So that 8 core super chip is only offering one core to Jita...period. You could toss all the chips as you want at Jita, it would not make a difference. They could of course instance Jita...but that would offer way more issues.

More than that, each time someone enters, exits, docks or undocks in the system the system has to recalculate everything that is moderated by skills. This adds even more load that is only going through a single core.

To really make changes they need to have a fully functioning multithread and separate the character calculations from the ship activities. Additionally people need an incentive to spread out a little. Logic would dictate that if Jita is full...maybe people would spread to other hubs. But as it is they stubbornly sit out site wasting time and processor cycles.

So may be Jita needs a hefty entry toll. May be taxes need to be increased to make it less profitable. I do not know this one, but whatever the case, players need to spread out from Jita and move to other hubs to spread the load.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#136 - 2013-06-09 06:44:56 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
People sitting in station chatting contribute practically zero load to the machine running the solar system.


Oh well, no problem, they are just innocent spambots then, and you've included them into your calculations :

CCP Explorer wrote:
There are X pilots causing load and Y spambots. The cap is at X+Y.


What about still removing them, you know, because botting is a bannable offense ?

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[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#137 - 2013-06-09 06:46:23 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
I can't find the link now, but apparently ships that are on autopilot have priority in the queue.

Oh, and the higher the value of your cargo the better, too..


Agreed. Frieghters with higher value cargo and are on autopilot have priority. They should always be primary(ied).



confirmed I read this somewhere, but for the life of me cant find it
Oxide Ammar
#138 - 2013-06-09 06:47:49 UTC
I don't mind if all the cap used by people that actually using Jita hub, that's good ...why ? because I know they are there to place buy orders or hauling their products to sell they are leaving as soon as they finish what they are doing unlike spamming bots.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Patrakele
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2013-06-09 08:08:46 UTC
Some can't take a hint that they are not wlecome in Jita.
Oxide Ammar
#140 - 2013-06-09 08:32:29 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Quote:
Other games don't limit sales to local zones
…and neither does EVE.


You're apparently not familiar with this one. He's a themeparker with a preternatural inability to "get" Eve, and is probably hoping the Jita "problem" will be "fixed" by allowing him to purchase anything from anywhere via a universal market and have it delivered to his hangar. Roll


Quote:
It's both a mechanics issue (trade alts of various stripes and skills parked in one area for convenience in selling), and human nature in a social game.


As previously mentioned, the people who are just parked aren't actually the problem. Markets, chat, etc. aren't actually on the same node, and an object merely existing in Jita doesn't actually consume all that many clock cycles.


What part of this thread you didn't understand ? no one is complaining that spamming bots are causing lags. What are we saying these spamming bots are occupying slots of the Jita cap population. Since they are useless to the rest of EVE community they should deal with that.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.