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Jita Population Limit

First post First post
Author
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2013-06-09 09:05:00 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
What part of this thread you didn't understand ? no one is complaining that spamming bots are causing lags. What are we saying these spamming bots are occupying slots of the Jita cap population. Since they are useless to the rest of EVE community they should deal with that.


You should try understanding what the Devs said, the population cap s already calculated with the chatters/botters in mind:

Now:

Space for real players: 1600

500 "Botters" (Just to demonstrate, number mustn't be true)
1600 Real players
2100 Population Cap


CCP removes the "Botters":

Space for real players is still 1600

1600 Real Players
1600 Population Cap

Nothing would change for people trying to get in.
Robus Muvila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#142 - 2013-06-09 09:08:55 UTC
Seriously if I was a game dev it's the threads like this that would make me want to shave my head and take to the rooftops. Here are the cliffnotes for the traders that have worked themselves into a frenzy


  • Jita is a near permanently reinforced that is already stretched to capacity.
  • Spambots are not contributing to the problem
  • Spambots are not interfering with the population cap
  • The only things doing this is the intensely heavy traffic of ships in flight in space


Is it really so bad to finally admit that the heart of the economy of a whole galaxy has outgrown one starsystem? Surely that is a positive reflection on the sheer juggernaut capitalism that you traders and industrialists drive.

TMC Senior Developer http://themittani.com - Because EvE has needed a proper news site for ages

Oxide Ammar
#143 - 2013-06-09 09:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxide Ammar
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
What part of this thread you didn't understand ? no one is complaining that spamming bots are causing lags. What are we saying these spamming bots are occupying slots of the Jita cap population. Since they are useless to the rest of EVE community they should deal with that.


You should try understanding what the Devs said, the population cap s already calculated with the chatters/botters in mind:

Now:

Space for real players: 1600

500 "Botters" (Just to demonstrate, number mustn't be true)
1600 Real players
2100 Population Cap


CCP removes the "Botters":

Space for real players is still 1600

1600 Real Players
1600 Population Cap

Nothing would change for people trying to get in.


OK so the cap is variable value based on the Botters in Jita, how is the system differentiate between real players and Botters ?

- everyone posting in local chat, system is considering them as Botters ?
- anyone is posting in local chat with constant time intervals between his posts?
- anyone is posting the same post in local chat repeatedly ?
- anyone is docked up considered as Botter ?
- anyone who is afk and docked at Jita is considered as Botter ?

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Djana Libra
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#144 - 2013-06-09 12:30:10 UTC
Wes Vyvorant wrote:

Ffs ccp just fix jita already. I am not paying to sit at a gate spamming buttons. And While your at it remove local chat cause its unusable anyway.


Well go sell and buy somewhere else, its not that hard.

And please CCP just remove the cap, let them deal with extreme tidi maybe then people will use other systems to trade, sell etc.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#145 - 2013-06-09 14:44:12 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Asptar Monastair wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.


Half of jita residents are spamming bots, they are useless and killing the fun for the rest of us. you need to introduce something to keep the traffic flowing.

Idea: first ~30 min docked in Jita is free, next the clock will be ticking and Concord will charge you ISK for staying more. Make the parking fee for someone staying like 6 hrs idle is big to teach people value of time.


Seeing as how markets and contracts and everything is handled on a different node, and chat is on a completely different service altogether, I would say the most work being done by the node would be on the ships in space. So reducing spammers and other docked activities probably wouldn't make much difference. I could be totally wrong though.
You would be absolutely right. Market, contracts and chat are on other nodes. The load in Jita is primarily traffic related, pilots docking/undocking/jumping-in/jumping-out.

Then why is the cap on total players? It should always allow me to log in if Im already docked, and just block undocking.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Demolishar
United Aggression
#146 - 2013-06-09 14:46:02 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:

Then why is the cap on total players? It should always allow me to log in if Im already docked, and just block undocking.


:effort:
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#147 - 2013-06-09 14:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
CCP Explorer wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.


Maybe you should do something about spam bots rather than punish people actually trying to play the game. Question
See my reply above, they don't contribute that much to load.

So not the point. ANY load from a EULA violator is unacceptable. Get rid of them.

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Algurmane
Miners Inn
Miners Coalition
#148 - 2013-06-09 15:44:23 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.






Here is a thought, buy a bigger better game server. Don't tell us you can't afford it. This "Time Diliation" should be a great big hint your equipment is a little out dated.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#149 - 2013-06-09 15:48:58 UTC
Algurmane wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.






Here is a thought, buy a bigger better game server. Don't tell us you can't afford it. This "Time Diliation" should be a great big hint your equipment is a little out dated.


It's not the hardware, it's the software, Jita is on the biggest thing the software can presently exploit.

Shouldn't you be defending Fountain instead of worrying about Jita?

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#150 - 2013-06-09 15:53:22 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
TharOkha wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.
Maybe you should do something about spam bots rather than punish people actually trying to play the game. Question
THIS..
half of jita residents are just scam / spam bots. im not against scamming, but in Jita it means a serious problem if there is a limit of players. Those bots just occupy free slots from this limit and they actually dont play a game.
Already replied to this in the thread.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#151 - 2013-06-09 15:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
AutumnWind1983 wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Noddy Comet wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
People sitting in station chatting contribute practically zero load to the machine running the solar system.
Yet they add to the total population limit, correct?
There are X pilots causing load and Y spambots. The cap is at X+Y.
So instead of the useful population of Jita being what the face value is by banning Y amount of spambots, it remains at facevalue - y and CCP is content with this status?
If we banned Y spambots then we would need to lower the limit to X since that's where the actual load comes from. The cap accounts for the non-contributing pilots.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#152 - 2013-06-09 15:57:58 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
Other games don't limit sales to local zones
…and neither does EVE.
You're apparently not familiar with this one. He's a themeparker with a preternatural inability to "get" Eve, and is probably hoping the Jita "problem" will be "fixed" by allowing him to purchase anything from anywhere via a universal market and have it delivered to his hangar. Roll
Quote:
It's both a mechanics issue (trade alts of various stripes and skills parked in one area for convenience in selling), and human nature in a social game.
As previously mentioned, the people who are just parked aren't actually the problem. Markets, chat, etc. aren't actually on the same node, and an object merely existing in Jita doesn't actually consume all that many clock cycles.
What part of this thread you didn't understand ? no one is complaining that spamming bots are causing lags. What are we saying these spamming bots are occupying slots of the Jita cap population. Since they are useless to the rest of EVE community they should deal with that.
If they all went away we would need to lower the cap. The cap accounts for both contributing and non-contributing pilots from a load perspective.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

Tollen Gallen
Glory of Reprisal Enterprise
#153 - 2013-06-09 15:57:59 UTC
This thread

like a broken record

Zimmy Zeta - I f*cking love martinis. the original ones, with gin, not that vodka martini crap. Your old Friends can use me for 7 days, free!!!

Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#154 - 2013-06-09 16:02:36 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
If we banned Y spambots then we would need to lower the limit to X since that's where the actual load comes from. The cap accounts for the non-contributing pilots.


No offense, Sir, but this sounds a little bit like you exactly knew who the spambots are in Jita.
I thought all use of bots would automatically lead to a ban.
It shouldn't be a question of "If" but of "when".

just my 2 cents.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.

Terajima Kazumi
Perkone
Caldari State
#155 - 2013-06-09 16:12:37 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Algurmane wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.






Here is a thought, buy a bigger better game server. Don't tell us you can't afford it. This "Time Diliation" should be a great big hint your equipment is a little out dated.


It's not the hardware, it's the software, Jita is on the biggest thing the software can presently exploit.

Shouldn't you be defending Fountain instead of worrying about Jita?


Please tell us all about a game where 2000 dudes can fight each other at once with neither time dilation nor excessive lag.
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#156 - 2013-06-09 16:22:45 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
Robus Muvila wrote:
Seriously if I was a game dev it's the threads like this that would make me want to shave my head and take to the rooftops. Here are the cliffnotes for the traders that have worked themselves into a frenzy

  • Jita is a near permanently reinforced that is already stretched to capacity.
  • Spambots are not contributing to the problem
  • Spambots are not interfering with the population cap
  • The only things doing this is the intensely heavy traffic of ships in flight in space

Is it really so bad to finally admit that the heart of the economy of a whole galaxy has outgrown one starsystem? Surely that is a positive reflection on the sheer juggernaut capitalism that you traders and industrialists drive.
Indeed, no one thing is going to "fix" Jita, multiple things will be needed. We are not going to throw hardware at the problem since there really isn't any better / more suitable hardware on the market and as Tippia has repeatedly explained in this thread then it's not a sustainable solution. That being said, if and when there is better hardware available we will probably buy it, because who doesn't like shiny new hardware... Big smile

In the meantime we are working on "Brain in a Box" (details explained by Tippia in this thread) that is primarily meant for coordinated fleet fight jump-ins but will greatly benefit Jita, and you can grow Amarr as an alternative to Jita.

I tweeted recently about Amarr's new hardware https://twitter.com/erlendur/status/340791130104942593 and about how the population of Amarr has grown in recent months https://twitter.com/erlendur/status/343517649927536643 . It had been 500-600 for a long while but is now peaking around 1000. Chribba replied https://twitter.com/ChribbaVeldspar/status/343637496351035392 reminiscing how it used to be only 40-50 (he probably walked a mile in the snow to his Veldnaught at the time). Amarr is still far behind Jita in terms of market volume but it's also significantly ahead of all others.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#157 - 2013-06-09 16:26:04 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
What part of this thread you didn't understand ? no one is complaining that spamming bots are causing lags. What are we saying these spamming bots are occupying slots of the Jita cap population. Since they are useless to the rest of EVE community they should deal with that.
You should try understanding what the Devs said, the population cap s already calculated with the chatters/botters in mind:

Now:

Space for real players: 1600

500 "Botters" (Just to demonstrate, number mustn't be true)
1600 Real players
2100 Population Cap

CCP removes the "Botters":

Space for real players is still 1600

1600 Real Players
1600 Population Cap

Nothing would change for people trying to get in.
OK so the cap is variable value based on the Botters in Jita, how is the system differentiate between real players and Botters ?

- everyone posting in local chat, system is considering them as Botters ?
- anyone is posting in local chat with constant time intervals between his posts?
- anyone is posting the same post in local chat repeatedly ?
- anyone is docked up considered as Botter ?
- anyone who is afk and docked at Jita is considered as Botter ?
It's not dynamic, we look at Jita on a regular basis and adjust the value based on the load numbers.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#158 - 2013-06-09 16:28:14 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Asptar Monastair wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.
Half of jita residents are spamming bots, they are useless and killing the fun for the rest of us. you need to introduce something to keep the traffic flowing.

Idea: first ~30 min docked in Jita is free, next the clock will be ticking and Concord will charge you ISK for staying more. Make the parking fee for someone staying like 6 hrs idle is big to teach people value of time.
Seeing as how markets and contracts and everything is handled on a different node, and chat is on a completely different service altogether, I would say the most work being done by the node would be on the ships in space. So reducing spammers and other docked activities probably wouldn't make much difference. I could be totally wrong though.
You would be absolutely right. Market, contracts and chat are on other nodes. The load in Jita is primarily traffic related, pilots docking/undocking/jumping-in/jumping-out.
Then why is the cap on total players? It should always allow me to log in if Im already docked, and just block undocking.
Logging in is an act of docking. Your character needs to be added to the solarsystem (in the station) and your skills and bonuses set up (e.g., skills that control what ships you can board and bonuses that control the size of your cargohold).

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#159 - 2013-06-09 16:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
If we banned Y spambots then we would need to lower the limit to X since that's where the actual load comes from. The cap accounts for the non-contributing pilots.


No offense, Sir, but this sounds a little bit like you exactly knew who the spambots are in Jita.
We don't, we simply look at the load numbers and adjust them to keep the server as busy as possible without too much TiDi.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

Pator Campus Slave
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2013-06-09 17:29:06 UTC
Question: Would removing Jita from spawning sites(and handling the rats in them) increase the performance?