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[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#321 - 2013-06-06 15:43:46 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I'd love to see more women playing EVE, but I don't think the game makers should go out of their way to recruit any demographic of people. Ultimately your gender, race or whatever else doesn't and should matter in a video game, if it did I'd race tank complexes all day long lol.


But they do (that 15 to 22 year-old demographic is what they shoot for).

And women in gaming is a huge untapped market. It behooves them to tap into it.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Merouk Baas
#322 - 2013-06-06 15:53:59 UTC
First of all, it's debatable, why exactly would EVE need women? In-game, we're all pilots and we're all spaceships, and whatever fun the game offers has NOTHING to do with men, women, dating, socializing, or anything RL. YOU want more women to play EVE, but why? So they can shoot you? I mean being shot down won't be any different; same pixels will be displayed, same sound will play, who cares who does it?

Second, we can't do anything; the playerbase is the playerbase, newbies, veterans, this is the game we like to play, with all the PVP and scamming and politics and being assholes to each other. If you're thinking of organizing a "let's be nice to women so they come play our game" campaign, good luck with that. It's like trying to get miners to not log in on a certain day.

Third, CCP could change the game to be more attractive to women; to offer more socialization, avatar gameplay, whatever. But they'd be making major changes, equivalent to pretty much designing a whole new game, to attract, what, 50% of Earth's population that is female? Why not make a NEW game instead and aim it at 100% of the population?

Sorry to say it, but too much effort for too little gain, really.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#323 - 2013-06-06 16:05:23 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
I'd love to see more women playing EVE, but I don't think the game makers should go out of their way to recruit any demographic of people. Ultimately your gender, race or whatever else doesn't and should matter in a video game, if it did I'd race tank complexes all day long lol.


But they do (that 15 to 22 year-old demographic is what they shoot for).

And women in gaming is a huge untapped market. It behooves them to tap into it.


Last time CCP gave us that info, The average age of an EVE player is 27, so if they are shooting for 15-22, they overshot.

It doesn't "behoove" CCP to do anything. Trying to get more of certain types of players to play means catering to the things those players want. A game like EVE isn't about such directed activity, it's about freedom of choice.

If after 10 years loads of women aren't playing EVE it probably means the subject matter isn't very interesting to women. That's ok, there are other games that ARE. EVE should be EVE, not some other game.

There aren't very many people playing EVE who are the same color I am, yet I don't think CCP should start some kind of "Urban Outreach". I think they should only have an "EVE type player" out-reach for people who would enjoy the kind of game EVE is but don't know it exists. A few of those people will be women, but gender, like race, doesn't matter one bit.
Sader Rykane
Midnight Sentinels
#324 - 2013-06-06 16:11:30 UTC
You think that's bad?

Try that awkward moment in any, and every TS, Ventriollo I've ever been in when all the white guys realize I'm black. Despite not "sounding black" or "acting black". And then eventual calls for "proof" or attempted racist jokes that happen directly after said revelation.

If you're not white and male. You're gonna get ****.

I could only imagine what would happen if I was black... AND female.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#325 - 2013-06-06 16:23:07 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Women aren't all the same, and there are a percentage of them who are or would be quite happy to play EVE the way it is. Of those of them who would like to play EVE but don't, a very large fraction aren't playing because people like Kaarous.


It's not just him or guys like him, it's overall the environment. MMO PvP games are an offshoot of FPS games and it adapted it's culture, and how guys psyche each other out is all that smack talk. It's a guy thing. But that's not how women interact. Women can be competitive, but generally they're supportive. That can be seen as a weakness to guys, but that's what women do...


If there's one game that heavily, overwhelmingly rewards co-operative and supportive play, it's EVE.


"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#326 - 2013-06-06 16:27:02 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Last time CCP gave us that info, The average age of an EVE player is 27, so if they are shooting for 15-22, they overshot.


Last poll I saw of gamers in RIFT the majority was 40+.

But the gaming "market" is that 15 year-old to 22 year-old male demographic (high school and college).

Jenn aSide wrote:
It doesn't "behoove" CCP to do anything. Trying to get more of certain types of players to play means catering to the things those players want. A game like EVE isn't about such directed activity, it's about freedom of choice.


Oh, yes it does. CCP is a business, and businesses are in business to make money. No money, no game.

If the 800lb gorilla in the room has most of the MMO player pool, you have to find another untapped market.

That's when innovation comes in.

Jenn aSide wrote:

There aren't very many people playing EVE who are the same color I am, yet I don't think CCP should start some kind of "Urban Outreach". I think they should only have an "EVE type player" out-reach for people who would enjoy the kind of game EVE is but don't know it exists. A few of those people will be women, but gender, like race, doesn't matter one bit.


Nor my color or background or age group. But gaming is always better with more players.

If you prefer quaint gaming with very few players, go play on a WoW low population realm. After a week, I think you'll say, "This isn't a bad idea...MOAR PLZ!!!"

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#327 - 2013-06-06 16:29:54 UTC
Sader Rykane wrote:
You think that's bad?

Try that awkward moment in any, and every TS, Ventriollo I've ever been in when all the white guys realize I'm black.


*Jenn pulls out sword, lops off Sader's head and screams"There can only be ONE!"*

Twisted
Quote:

If you're not white and male. You're gonna get ****.


Yea, but You just gotta give as good as you get I've learned, and I do so by reminding those who have such issues of both their lack of rhythm and inability to play basketball (while NOT telling them i can't dance and don't like basketball, still, stereotypes can be useful Smile ).

Sader Rykane
Midnight Sentinels
#328 - 2013-06-06 16:32:23 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sader Rykane wrote:
You think that's bad?

Try that awkward moment in any, and every TS, Ventriollo I've ever been in when all the white guys realize I'm black.


*Jenn pulls out sword, lops off Sader's head and screams"There can only be ONE!"*

Twisted
Quote:

If you're not white and male. You're gonna get ****.


Yea, but You just gotta give as good as you get I've learned, and I do so by reminding those who have such issues of both their lack of rhythm and inability to play basketball (while NOT telling them i can't dance and don't like basketball, still, stereotypes can be useful Smile ).



I'm pretty sure we're not allowed to make highlander references.

And I'm 99% sure I'm older than you so I've got seniority, in this. You're gonna have to leave buddy, don't make a scene on the way out.

*Note to self, check Jenn ASide's character age*
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#329 - 2013-06-06 16:36:12 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Women aren't all the same, and there are a percentage of them who are or would be quite happy to play EVE the way it is. Of those of them who would like to play EVE but don't, a very large fraction aren't playing because people like Kaarous.


It's not just him or guys like him, it's overall the environment. MMO PvP games are an offshoot of FPS games and it adapted it's culture, and how guys psyche each other out is all that smack talk. It's a guy thing. But that's not how women interact. Women can be competitive, but generally they're supportive. That can be seen as a weakness to guys, but that's what women do.

I can relate a story from my past when I was a WM (Woman Marine). The ladies barracks we would help each other out (we're all in this together attitude). We were on the 3rd floor of one of those old H buildings, and the guys were on the 2nd floor across in another H building. The mentality in the men's barracks that we could see was alien. Guys who refused to shower, they would carry them into the shower clothes on, hooping and hollering. Again it was a guy thing. To them it's competition, they like competing against each other. Women barracks was very quiet and orderly, we had our routines and it was calm in contrast. We didn't compete against each other. PT in the marines you're taught how to use pugil sticks, and the ladies it took more effort to attack. First time I was paired with a tiny girl just barely 5ft tall. In my mind I couldn't attack her as she was so small. So I let her attack first. See? The guys took no prompting, they put on the war face and attacked each other.

And that's the Marine Corps, at MCRD Parris Island.

Now put women on the rifle range things changed. A lot of the ladies excelled. Not because they could listen to instruction well, but because by nature. Men pull the trigger hard, when it's instructed to squeeze it gently. Men also breathe harder, so when it came qualification time they pulled the triggers and didn't hold their breath well. Ladies did. They would get tighter groups, and that's how you get your rifle badges in the real world...it's not headshots...it's tight groups.

Women cooperate. Put a group into a foreign situation they'll by nature pull together and help each other. Activities that work well for this they will be very good at. Men compete. And we see games all about competition. On the fundamentals they are at odds in gaming. What is considered "gaming" to men (and to many devs itself) goes against what women do naturally.

And that's the real reason why gaming doesn't appeal to women, especially combat oriented games. They don't want to compete like guys, and they prefer to cooperate. They will gravitate to other things that feel good and relate to them. And if that's pink furry pets, it'll be pink furry pets (but they can do fine without them too -- do you see a Woman Marine hold them on duty??? -- but if that's all they can relate too...).

This is w-h-y a game must have PvE for women. Point blank. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make the horse drink it. So any effort to simply train a woman to do PvP will fail unless she has her comfort zone that is supportive, cooperative and social (with a lot of communication).

Currently that's not the design of EvE. It's "Everybody vs Everybody" and that environment will not be conductive for most women. Do the studies, and it'll show just that. Superior hand/eye coordination. Superior shots. But ask them to compete every step of the way, they'll return to WoW or game like it (because there they don't have to compete with others).

So correcting him to be more PC in itself won't make it better. That's what devs have to do (after they conduct their surveys and all) to design an environment that's hospitable for women, while still living up to being EvE itself.


I did my stint at PI as well. And I have to say, it's alien both ways.

When the guys are through throwing out stinky buddy in the shower, we lean up back to back and share our food. Our camaraderie is built off of literally pulling some along with us, and being pushed by others. A more competitive group is tighter. That's why if you get into a fight with a fellow recruit, they bunk you together.

Quite literally, some of my biggest enemies became my best friends.

In the end, that ribbing and pushing and the fights are meant for creating a social bond amongst men. Sometimes vulgar, but almost always aggressive. And those who refuse to participate, can't hack, or ball up and hide ... well, you can't trust. If they can't stand the picking, if they can't swing back as hard as they give, there is obviously something hidden there that makes them not want to associate. Some insecurity, some weakness, or simply a difference. In a tight fireteam like the Corps requires, you remove those unstable elements from the unit. They'll kill you.

I can understand why this would seem alien to women. I'd rather punch a guy in his jaw and have a beer afterwards than talk about him behind his back and hold a grudge. Not only do I enjoy the confrontation, but I grow from it, and it's reaction with others.



When we looked across the parade deck, the women were always so nice and polite to each other. And then the drama, the backbiting. As a guy, I've never understood why two women in the workplace always seem to have to diss each other.

So while the argument that men aren't supportive seems valid, I disagree. It's simply that our support is earned by camaraderie and aggression, as odd as that sounds. We know that guy will pull our ass literally out of the fire, even if he don't like us. Cause if he really didn't like us, he'd have punched us in the jaw two months ago, and it could have been settled.

Different ways.


If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#330 - 2013-06-06 16:39:39 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Seniae 0n3 wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Seniae 0n3 wrote:
You were doing so well and then you come with one of those examples that proves women can be a serious threat. You disappoint me.

This is EVE. Threats are fun.


I meant to say ... you shouldn't need to use an example of how tough women can be. The only reason you need the example is to make it feel good for you to write something like that about women.

This is a thread where we have people saying that the way to attract more women to the game is by adding more clothing options, more or less.
This is a game where toughness and resourcefulness are two of the most important attributes for any player if they wish to get the most out of their experience.

So maybe adding more clothing options will entice more women (and men) to play, but if that's their only reason then I don't want them, and neither should anybody else that's reasonably serious about the game. These kinds of people will get bored pretty quickly, as such their subscriptions won't exactly be reliable.
I'm not saying that such things are necessarily bad (hell, I thought the sleeve tattoo idea was pretty great, and more clothing options can't really hurt either) but these are not by far defining features of the game.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#331 - 2013-06-06 16:43:35 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Last time CCP gave us that info, The average age of an EVE player is 27, so if they are shooting for 15-22, they overshot.


Last poll I saw of gamers in RIFT the majority was 40+.

But the gaming "market" is that 15 year-old to 22 year-old male demographic (high school and college).


And, EVe doesn't need to much of that. All one has to do is spend 5 minutes on xbox live to see why.

Quote:

Oh, yes it does. CCP is a business, and businesses are in business to make money. No money, no game.

If the 800lb gorilla in the room has most of the MMO player pool, you have to find another untapped market.

That's when innovation comes in.


CCP is still in business, still growing, still presiding over a game that is 10 years old and still growiing. there is no emergency that demands CCP throw away 10 years of success by changing so much that people who don't like EVE as is will sudden like EVE.

All CCP should do is look for more people who are already predisposed to like what EVE has to offer. Doing anything else is courting disaster IMO.

Quote:

Nor my color or background or age group. But gaming is always better with more players.

If you prefer quaint gaming with very few players, go play on a WoW low population realm. After a week, I think you'll say, "This isn't a bad idea...MOAR PLZ!!!"


Ah, that's where you're making the mistake. That's a huge generalization, and those usually come from people who mistakenly think everyone else is or should be like them. Many of us prefer exclusivity over things that are just average and have mass appeal.

More is not always better.

A Ghetto usually has more people than a Ritz Carlton hotel. More people drive Honda Accords than Bugattis. A no talent pop star will have huge concerts where as the musicians actually worth listening to will be playing some small venus in BFE etc etc.

We've got a good quality game with a good quality community that (unimportantly) just so happens to be overwhelmingly "White" Western and Male. Screwing with one of the MMO worls longest living success stories in the name of some magical diversity that doesn't matter one bit to the actual game is a dumb idea. That is unless you think it's a good idea to have "racial bonuses" that actually mean something (i mean damn, i'm black, Minmatar ships should go at least 5% faster when I fly them, but only when getting chased by CONCORD..also %$#^ the police).
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#332 - 2013-06-06 16:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhivre
Ruze wrote:


I can understand why this would seem alien to women. I'd rather punch a guy in his jaw and have a beer afterwards than talk about him behind his back and hold a grudge. Not only do I enjoy the confrontation, but I grow from it, and it's reaction with others.


When we looked across the parade deck, the women were always so nice and polite to each other. And then the drama, the backbiting. As a guy, I've never understood why two women in the workplace always seem to have to diss each other.

So while the argument that men aren't supportive seems valid, I disagree. It's simply that our support is earned by camaraderie and aggression, as odd as that sounds. We know that guy will pull our ass literally out of the fire, even if he don't like us. Cause if he really didn't like us, he'd have punched us in the jaw two months ago, and it could have been settled.

Different ways.




All men are like that?

And all women are like that too?

Although, when men do it we call it "Politics" or "Corp theft" in eve ^^

/me thinks I should probably change the people I hang round with then, because I think I have the groups back to front.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#333 - 2013-06-06 16:45:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Sader Rykane wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sader Rykane wrote:
You think that's bad?

Try that awkward moment in any, and every TS, Ventriollo I've ever been in when all the white guys realize I'm black.


*Jenn pulls out sword, lops off Sader's head and screams"There can only be ONE!"*

Twisted
Quote:

If you're not white and male. You're gonna get ****.


Yea, but You just gotta give as good as you get I've learned, and I do so by reminding those who have such issues of both their lack of rhythm and inability to play basketball (while NOT telling them i can't dance and don't like basketball, still, stereotypes can be useful Smile ).



I'm pretty sure we're not allowed to make highlander references.

And I'm 99% sure I'm older than you so I've got seniority, in this. You're gonna have to leave buddy, don't make a scene on the way out.

*Note to self, check Jenn ASide's character age*


As a compromise we can band together and form our own corp. We could call it the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Caldari Pilots). Can you fly Tengu?

Big smile
FeralShadow
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#334 - 2013-06-06 16:46:07 UTC
This is a very difficult discussion. On the one hand people want to be treated equally. On the other, being treated equally doesn't mean the same to many people. When hanging with guy friends, I joke around and if they set themselves up I sometimes make jokes at their expense. They do the same to me. I do the same to women I play with, and they do the same to me. Gender doesn't matter, I treat everyone equally (At least I hope I do). However, some people expect special treatment, men and women alike. They don't last long.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#335 - 2013-06-06 16:46:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Seniae 0n3 wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Seniae 0n3 wrote:
You were doing so well and then you come with one of those examples that proves women can be a serious threat. You disappoint me.

This is EVE. Threats are fun.


I meant to say ... you shouldn't need to use an example of how tough women can be. The only reason you need the example is to make it feel good for you to write something like that about women.

This is a thread where we have people saying that the way to attract more women to the game is by adding more clothing options, more or less.
This is a game where toughness and resourcefulness are two of the most important attributes for any player if they wish to get the most out of their experience.

So maybe adding more clothing options will entice more women (and men) to play, but if that's their only reason then I don't want them, and neither should anybody else that's reasonably serious about the game. These kinds of people will get bored pretty quickly, as such their subscriptions won't exactly be reliable.
I'm not saying that such things are necessarily bad (hell, I thought the sleeve tattoo idea was pretty great, and more clothing options can't really hurt either) but these are not by far defining features of the game.


The only thing that that will attract more anybody to the game is to make it F2P.

Thank God that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. EVE will stay as it is as long as it is what it is. Suits me just fine.

Mr Epeen Cool
Sader Rykane
Midnight Sentinels
#336 - 2013-06-06 16:47:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

As a compromise we can band together and form our own corp. We could call it the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Caldari Pilots). Can you fly Tengu?

Big smile


I have a Nightmare called "**** Shields" and my caldari standing is somewhere around -7 or -8 or something.
Lady Areola Fappington
#337 - 2013-06-06 16:48:32 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

This is a thread where we have people saying that the way to attract more women to the game is by adding more clothing options, more or less.
This is a game where toughness and resourcefulness are two of the most important attributes for any player if they wish to get the most out of their experience.

So maybe adding more clothing options will entice more women (and men) to play, but if that's their only reason then I don't want them, and neither should anybody else that's reasonably serious about the game. These kinds of people will get bored pretty quickly, as such their subscriptions won't exactly be reliable.
I'm not saying that such things are necessarily bad (hell, I thought the sleeve tattoo idea was pretty great, and more clothing options can't really hurt either) but these are not by far defining features of the game.


I'm finding this discussion a little funny. It seems to be going like this:

Gents: We need to add more clothing/shopping/spacebarbie to get the ladies here. Wimmins like socializing!

Women: Hey, if you guys would lay off the rampant misogyny and weird white-knight stalking, more girls would play.



Trust me, very few gals who're interested in EVE are going "Well, darn, I'd love to play, but that game doesn't have enough shoe shopping, I'll pass"

I've asked my girlfriends to play. I always get "No thanks, only dicks play that game." I've never gotten "Well, I'd play, but I can't go shopping with my avatar."

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#338 - 2013-06-06 16:49:08 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
The only thing that that will attract more anybody to the game is to make it F2P.

Thank God that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. EVE will stay as it is as long as it is what it is. Suits me just fine.

Mr Epeen Cool

F2P may cause more people total to play the game, but a whole bunch of us subscribers would leave to be replaced by droves of babbling idiots.

You think it's bad now, just wait.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#339 - 2013-06-06 16:51:22 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:


The only thing that that will attract more anybody to the game is to make it F2P.


EVE is F2P, I haven't given CCP a dime of real currency in months :) .
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#340 - 2013-06-06 16:51:32 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

This is a thread where we have people saying that the way to attract more women to the game is by adding more clothing options, more or less.
This is a game where toughness and resourcefulness are two of the most important attributes for any player if they wish to get the most out of their experience.

So maybe adding more clothing options will entice more women (and men) to play, but if that's their only reason then I don't want them, and neither should anybody else that's reasonably serious about the game. These kinds of people will get bored pretty quickly, as such their subscriptions won't exactly be reliable.
I'm not saying that such things are necessarily bad (hell, I thought the sleeve tattoo idea was pretty great, and more clothing options can't really hurt either) but these are not by far defining features of the game.


I'm finding this discussion a little funny. It seems to be going like this:

Gents: We need to add more clothing/shopping/spacebarbie to get the ladies here. Wimmins like socializing!

Women: Hey, if you guys would lay off the rampant misogyny and weird white-knight stalking, more girls would play.



Trust me, very few gals who're interested in EVE are going "Well, darn, I'd love to play, but that game doesn't have enough shoe shopping, I'll pass"

I've asked my girlfriends to play. I always get "No thanks, only dicks play that game." I've never gotten "Well, I'd play, but I can't go shopping with my avatar."

Yep. I don't claim to understand women at all, but the fact that people continue to say stuff like this just baffles me.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)