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[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

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Author
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#361 - 2013-06-06 19:55:09 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
NosEspEYE wrote:
I will laugh if CCP starts to make policies and changes to the game that "blame, penalize" male players in an effort to encourage women to play. They will go from hero to zero, white knight not white wolf but call it typical knee jerk reaction to pander to a specific group.


No one is asking for that.


In fact, if anyone is suggesting anything, it's that we stop penalizing ourselves by driving off half the potential playerbase for no good reason.

(Do you play to get away from your wife for a while? Good news! The woman who just joined corp isn't your wife! She may even be playing to get away from her husband for a while.)

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#362 - 2013-06-06 20:09:02 UTC
I just realized i never really tackled the issue at hand in favor of commenting on certain points. lol. I think it's pretty much a case of interests and where they lay. I never cared about spaceships. Still don't really. I see them mainly as tools to accomplish a job. Sci-fi has never appealed to me. I've been trying to get into it more since trying eve but its not easy. It just doesn't click very well with me.

Perverts in game have never really bothered me. After years of online gaming they are just a fact of life. I know how to deal with them and do so accordingly. No game exists that I haven't tried due to be presence of pervy mouthbreathers. Those types are everywhere. Eve was no different. It took me so long to try eve because of the subject material. Boredom drive me to try it and I never thought I would stick with it long. It was the market that hooked me initially. Making money. And then the cool people I met.

So I guess I'm living proof that women can get into eve even without much of a geeky side to begin with. With me it was just finding something I liked about it and building the relationship from there.

This is all stuff said before in the thread. This is just my take on the subject.
Xavier Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
#363 - 2013-06-06 20:17:47 UTC
The only people who care about girls in games are the guys who aren't "getting any" IRL...

just sayin Big smile
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#364 - 2013-06-06 20:20:38 UTC
Xavier Liche wrote:
The only people who care about girls in games are the guys who aren't "getting any" IRL...

just sayin Big smile

You don't understand the issue then, at all.
It's not that we want them in our game for our own personal "interest".
It's that we're concerned about an entire demographic that finds EVE unpalatable for no particularly good reason.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Garresh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#365 - 2013-06-06 20:49:00 UTC
Also: If you're going to start saying GB2Kitchen jokes and **** like that, at least make it funny. There's nothing sadder and more inadvertantly offensive than trying to make a racist/sexist joke, but it not being funny. Because then the only option left is to get mildly offended. Kitchen jokes haven't been funny in years, unless it's this one:


If a tree falls in a forest, and a women is around to hear it, why was she out of the kitchen?


Lol

But really, if someone asks you to stop making jokes, just cut it out. And if you are gonna make jokes, make damn sure they're funny.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank

Ooiit
Smack gypsy
#366 - 2013-06-06 20:53:09 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Xavier Liche wrote:
The only people who care about girls in games are the guys who aren't "getting any" IRL...

just sayin Big smile

You don't understand the issue then, at all.
It's not that we want them in our game for our own personal "interest".
It's that we're concerned about an entire demographic that finds EVE unpalatable for no particularly good reason.


No, You don't understand the issue.

Wondering why more women don't play EVE is like wondering why more blue eyed people dont play EVE. Players are players, and who cares if they're male or female, short or tall, fat or skinny, white or black. No one SHOULD give a ****. In my experience most players do not care and those that do fall into the catergory that you seem to represent very well. The category that seems to think they need to make an entirely different game to appeal to women. Maybe you need to stop giving a **** and just let players play the game nomatter who they are.
Markku Laaksonen
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#367 - 2013-06-06 20:55:31 UTC
This is a non issue.

DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/

EVE Buddy Invite - https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=047203f1-4124-42a1-b36f-39ca8ae5d6e2&action=buddy

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#368 - 2013-06-06 21:18:59 UTC
Ooiit wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Xavier Liche wrote:
The only people who care about girls in games are the guys who aren't "getting any" IRL...

just sayin Big smile

You don't understand the issue then, at all.
It's not that we want them in our game for our own personal "interest".
It's that we're concerned about an entire demographic that finds EVE unpalatable for no particularly good reason.


No, You don't understand the issue.

Wondering why more women don't play EVE is like wondering why more blue eyed people dont play EVE. Players are players, and who cares if they're male or female, short or tall, fat or skinny, white or black. No one SHOULD give a ****. In my experience most players do not care and those that do fall into the catergory that you seem to represent very well. The category that seems to think they need to make an entirely different game to appeal to women. Maybe you need to stop giving a **** and just let players play the game nomatter who they are.

Except blue-eyed players don't face any kind of widespread prejudice and discrimination.
Women do.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2013-06-06 21:44:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ooiit wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Xavier Liche wrote:
The only people who care about girls in games are the guys who aren't "getting any" IRL...

just sayin Big smile

You don't understand the issue then, at all.
It's not that we want them in our game for our own personal "interest".
It's that we're concerned about an entire demographic that finds EVE unpalatable for no particularly good reason.


No, You don't understand the issue.

Wondering why more women don't play EVE is like wondering why more blue eyed people dont play EVE. Players are players, and who cares if they're male or female, short or tall, fat or skinny, white or black. No one SHOULD give a ****. In my experience most players do not care and those that do fall into the catergory that you seem to represent very well. The category that seems to think they need to make an entirely different game to appeal to women. Maybe you need to stop giving a **** and just let players play the game nomatter who they are.

Except blue-eyed players don't face any kind of widespread prejudice and discrimination.
Women do.


Why is it people, that don't care, read these threads, attempt to show the world how unbiased they are, become offended at people who do care, and instead just reveal how shallow their thinking process is? *thinking out loud*

Don't worry. Eve is not going Pink, Rainbow or any other color. My guess is you're a young white guy with no real discrimination problems and think the world runs or should run according to your myopic perspective. Take your own advice and quit giving a **** and save us the pubescent drivel. (Ooiit)

Also, Newflash: Some people have a lot more fun in mixed company.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#370 - 2013-06-06 22:11:16 UTC
Yawn, go to sleep and there's like 5 more pages of this foolishness. But, let's tackle this.

Quote:

I'd say that a large part of the problem is you and people like you. You explicitly say that you're not willing to change your culture. That culture is largely responsible for keeping women away (it's utter bullshit to say that women don't like sci-fi, or that EVE can't be an appealing game for women, so let's not even go down that route).

It goes back to my first remark: Everything is peachy for you and people like you. You don't have a problem so you can't see why anyone else should have a problem. No one in your corp is saying anything that offends you, so if anyone else is offended then that's their problem.

But it doesn't maybe occur to you that, at the very least, you're losing out on good recruits because you're not willing to confront a problem within your corp. Instead, you're defending and enabling the people who are acting like jerks to potential female recruits.

When I said that we don't do that in our alliance, that's true now, but it didn't used to be that way. I recruited a very good in game friend of mine to VANIS a couple of years ago, but after a few months he left, and I was pretty disappointed. It turned out that he left because, when I wasn't around, there were a few players in INIT. who were making really offensive anti-American comments, and after a while he understandably got sick of it. He didn't mention it to me because he assumed that we'd take the attitude that you're taking - that it was up to him to adapt to the majority, so our corp lost a top-tier prober and I lost a good in game friend.

Later he told me why he left and I passed the info on to our leadership who came down on the offenders hard. Now we have US players again and things are good because we don't tell them that it's their fault for "causing trouble" for being offended by anti-American remarks.

When your guys can't stop tripping over their dicks and act like idiots to female players, I don't care if its 20 of your guys acting that way over 1 woman; they're in the wrong for acting that way, not her for not liking it, and you're in the wrong for not calling them on it. As the corp CEO it's supposed to be exactly your job to tell people who are being ****** to your members to back off, even if the offenders are also your members.

Why on earth would you defend a corp member's right to be crappy to another corp member, instead of confronting them? Because you'd rather side with 8 guys than 2? Wow. I'm glad I'm not in your corp, because who the hell could rely on you to back them up when they were in a tight spot? Awesome leadership you're showing there mate.



First of all, I'm not in charge of squat in my corp, and that's the way I like it, lol. Any leadership experiences I mentioned were from WoW, in early Wrath of the Lich King. But that's a small digression.

Alright, so the problem is "people like me". I love how playing devil's advocate for people's right to free association makes me the problem, but hey, moving on.

So, as I mentioned. this is a player issue, and has little if anything to do with the actual game. So, what are we going to do about this? Can we make EVE players attend mandatory Equal Opportunity and Sexual Harrassment classes, like in a big IRL corporation?

No?

Then as someone else said, this is a non issue. Aside from huge, mass bannings to defend a small few number of players, the community won't change the way that they've always been, they have little reason to. CCP won't, for all their recent white knighting, start banning 5 or 6 thousand people for offending other people. It's not economical or realistic to do so.

Maybe you, as the CSM, has more insight into how we can try to change the playerbase than I, but from my perspective, nothing's likely to change. In which case, this whole exercise has been pointless.

So, it's utter bullshit to say women don't like sci fi? Good thing I haven't said that, because I know plenty of women who do. My regular opponent at the 40k table is a 14 year old girl lol. I said on average it's not as appealing as it is to men. That is, unless we can actually lay the demographic disparity entirely at my feet.

Ok, the anti American thing? For real? I do hope he had realized before he joined your alliance that people don't like Americans lol. I don't really want to make that the tired old, "EVE isn't for the thin skinned" again, but yikes. I could only imagine that it transcended jokes made in his prescence and became personal attacks, which is a different matter.

And to your last point. I'm not defending anyone's right to be a **** to anyone else (although that is still their right as players, let the mods fall where they may). What I'm saying is, that I can understand someone wanting to remove a disruption from their social order.

What I'm saying is, that if someone starts to tell you "It's them or me", just by that statement, to me, they aren't worth the trouble. Because the person who says that is out to start trouble. The person who actually can come to me, and say "Hey, this isn't cool", yeah, I am pretty well ok with that. The people who literally can't be asked to knock off something that is directed(there's the key word) at another person, needs to grow up some. But when it's "Person X said '*****' once, I want him gone cause that's sexist!!11!", no, I don't back that kind of person up.

And that's about the part where, I said I don't care to be told to watch my language. Which is pretty much where this all escalated from.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#371 - 2013-06-06 22:28:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And to your last point. I'm not defending anyone's right to be a **** to anyone else (although that is still their right as players, let the mods fall where they may). What I'm saying is, that I can understand someone wanting to remove a disruption from their social order.


Except that what you've said previously is that you bar women entirely because of a few bad experiences, rather than removing people who "disrupt the social order". Which makes you sexist because you are discriminating against people based on gender.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
he people who literally can't be asked to knock off something that is directed(there's the key word) at another person, needs to grow up some. But when it's "Person X said '*****' once, I want him gone cause that's sexist!!11!", no, I don't back that kind of person up.


Comments don't have to be directed at a particular person to be offensive. Refer to my previous comments about bad taste humour: in many cases the offended party will ask for those to stop, and this is not an attempt to start drama. Your choice to classify it as a "it's you or me" ultimatum is another of your opinions which people are railing against.

You certainly do have the right to choose who you associate with. Your decision to express your choice as "no women allowed" has marked you as a sexist. It's as black and white as that. You then defend your decision by claiming that women are trouble-makers, only making the situation worse.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#372 - 2013-06-07 00:48:00 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And to your last point. I'm not defending anyone's right to be a **** to anyone else (although that is still their right as players, let the mods fall where they may). What I'm saying is, that I can understand someone wanting to remove a disruption from their social order.


Except that what you've said previously is that you bar women entirely because of a few bad experiences, rather than removing people who "disrupt the social order". Which makes you sexist because you are discriminating against people based on gender.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
he people who literally can't be asked to knock off something that is directed(there's the key word) at another person, needs to grow up some. But when it's "Person X said '*****' once, I want him gone cause that's sexist!!11!", no, I don't back that kind of person up.


Comments don't have to be directed at a particular person to be offensive. Refer to my previous comments about bad taste humour: in many cases the offended party will ask for those to stop, and this is not an attempt to start drama. Your choice to classify it as a "it's you or me" ultimatum is another of your opinions which people are railing against.

You certainly do have the right to choose who you associate with. Your decision to express your choice as "no women allowed" has marked you as a sexist. It's as black and white as that. You then defend your decision by claiming that women are trouble-makers, only making the situation worse.


I don't "bar women", that was in 2009, and I've long since quit World of Pandas. I have no say in recruitment at my own corp.

Furthermore, as I mentioned, the outright word "ban" was probably a poor choice of words. But the criteria myself and the other guild officers had agreed upon (no noobs, no drama, no ret paladins and no Gnomes), did end up removing any of the women who applied in the future from consideration. It had the same effect as a ban in any case, but that's just semantics.

And like I said. If you're the kind of person who will bat your e-lashes at me in a teamspeak interview, then you're not the kind of person I want to play with. Nuff said. Nevermind that we rejected dozens, possibly more than a hundred men's guild apps in the same 3 month period for petty **** like not being gemmed or specced correctly.

I use the "it's them or me" statement because that is precisely what happened. Not my opinion, that's just what happened.

Do I have the right to choose who I associate with? Judging from some of the comments, I seemingly don't/shouldn't.

I play with women in this game, and many others. What I am saying is, judging from my own personal experiences, I can understand someone who wouldn't want to associate with females in a game. I can easily how understand how men, especially American men, would be made uneasy in such circumstances too. It's a conditioned defense mechanism from having been burned in the past, irl or otherwise. Should this happen? Probably not. But is it the reality of the situation? Yes.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#373 - 2013-06-07 01:01:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
[quote=Kaarous Aldurald]And to your last point. I'm not defending anyone's right to be a **** to anyone else (although that is still their right as players, let the mods fall where they may). What I'm saying is, that I can understand someone wanting to remove a disruption from their social order.


I play with women in this game, and many others. What I am saying is, judging from my own personal experiences, I can understand someone who wouldn't want to associate with females in a game. I can easily how understand how men, especially American men, would be made uneasy in such circumstances too. It's a conditioned defense mechanism from having been burned in the past, irl or otherwise. Should this happen? Probably not. But is it the reality of the situation? Yes.


The truth will set you free. (and boy does this look familiar-- in an oh-so-mmo-sad way)
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#374 - 2013-06-07 01:04:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yawn, go to sleep and there's like 5 more pages of this foolishness.


I know, right!

It's almost as if you really aren't as important as you think you are and people can manage to carry on a conversation without you.

Mr Epeen Cool
Hrothgar Nilsson
#375 - 2013-06-07 01:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Andie Nordgren hit the nail on the head: "Science fiction is an extremely male-dominated domain."

We can sit around and debate the reasons why it is so, but it doesn't erase the fact that it is so.

Me? I like machines and tinkering, whether it's cars or computers or whatever else, and get excited about the stuff that's around the corner in the future. Most of the guys I know are the same, few of whom are gamers. Not all of them are into the same machines I am (e.g. computers), but most of them are into at least one type or more.

I don't personally know any women who are into machines and tinkering, but I'm aware that a (relative) few of them exist.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#376 - 2013-06-07 01:11:43 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yawn, go to sleep and there's like 5 more pages of this foolishness.


I know, right!

It's almost as if you really aren't as important as you think you are and people can manage to carry on a conversation without you.

Mr Epeen Cool


No, more like I thought it would have been locked again by now. Surprised it's still up here at honestly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#377 - 2013-06-07 01:25:43 UTC
Amazing that civil (almost anyway) discourse can be tolerated so long when it conforms to forum guidelines.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#378 - 2013-06-07 01:29:03 UTC
Ooiit wrote:
Wondering why more women don't play EVE is like wondering why more blue eyed people dont play EVE. Players are players, and who cares if they're male or female, short or tall, fat or skinny, white or black. No one SHOULD give a ****.


That's taking it to the politically correct extreme.

There will always be differences. And those differences are having an impact to EvE, as the gender ratios are out of whack. If it's but 4% women playing EvE (as that'll be even lower than FPS games) the game, for positive mental health issues alone, EvE needs help. That's too much "away" time from the opposite sex, in a game where the age of the guys are prime marriage years. For the sociological reasons as well that's not healthy.

Just think of what NASA is going through with a Mars landing, and that's for a 3 year mission. Being away from the wife and kids for that long is one thing, being away from females completely is another. Such seclusion brings up mental health issues and poor socialization skills -- and in gaming, with basement boys -- not healthy.

Game socialization needs to reflect reality in games like MMOs, as they're heavy time sinks and methods to "get away". Fine to "get away" from that boss from hell; mother-in-law; the drudge of school...but not human company, and a good mix of it. Consider a game like a bar, and a bar with only guys in the back is pretty dull, as it's missing half of socialization equation.

And you know the guys will enjoy it, too.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#379 - 2013-06-07 01:56:07 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Andie Nordgren hit the nail on the head: "Science fiction is an extremely male-dominated domain."

We can sit around and debate the reasons why it is so, but it doesn't erase the fact that it is so.


It maybe dominated by males due to their interest in science (which isn't a "warm" study), but that doesn't mean there's no ladies out there that doesn't enjoy it, either.

My other sister married your typical Mensa German scientist geek (he was building cars at 15 and employed at that age to do so...I don't know how the AMC shop did it, but did...wunderkind type), who'll take a test and beat it's records. They met in high school, him lost in his books, she lost in her art work. They've been married over 30 years now. They both share an interest in sci-fi and anime, and been an item ever since.

It's not that those ladies don't exist, it's that those ladies aren't going to pewpewpew 24/7 and think it's rad for the most part.

Give them Star Trek, sure. Give them Star Wars dog fights and a 15 year-old screams smack talk while doing it...see ya!

And in truth my sister's husband wouldn't even play EvE. Why? He rather be reading it (profuse reader). He's truly your Mensa German scientist...they don't pewpewpew, they build. Give him the tools and an idea, he's not going to go out to destroy, he's going to tinker.

So if folks really want to get into stereotypes of who would like playing this game, the true geeks aren't either.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Hrothgar Nilsson
#380 - 2013-06-07 02:14:19 UTC
I didn't say there weren't any female sci-fi fans. There's just not that many. For some reason it's guys that primarily like messing around with machines and tech for fun and sci-fi is a natural thing to take a liking to when messing around with machines and tech is one of the most fun things for a person.