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War Declarations need Reform

Author
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-06-04 11:58:20 UTC
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
None of the those three choices will force them to retract the war.


If you want to force them to retract the war, make them regret declaring it in the first place. Means to do that are completely up to you. Can't think of any? You lost.
Kathy Stewart
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-06-04 12:01:16 UTC
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
OK, so someone declares war on my corp - what move do I have that will FORCE them to retract the war?

own them
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2013-06-04 12:02:28 UTC
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
None of the those three choices will force them to retract the war.


ISK makes me retract a war.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Baldour Ngarr
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-06-04 12:03:05 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
None of the those three choices will force them to retract the war.


If you want to force them to retract the war, make them regret declaring it in the first place.


That is not forcing them, that's persuading them.
Baldour Ngarr
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-06-04 12:03:49 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
None of the those three choices will force them to retract the war.


ISK makes me retract a war.


No it doesn't. It might make you CHOOSE to retract one, but you are not obligated to do so whether you want to or not.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2013-06-04 12:07:52 UTC
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
None of the those three choices will force them to retract the war.


ISK makes me retract a war.


No it doesn't. It might make you CHOOSE to retract one, but you are not obligated to do so whether you want to or not.


Since you seem to think you know me. Let's test it.

I am going to wardec you, then lets test and see if I choose not to drop the war if ISK is offered.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Seetesh
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-06-04 12:10:57 UTC
If this is causing you to cry I am more that happy to hold your hand for you and point you in the direction of a "easy" mmo with no real loss factors. If that's too much grow a pair and understand this is eve and its what makes eve so great. Ten years on and I still love this game.
Xaveus Young
Drugs R Us
#48 - 2013-06-04 12:12:33 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Well OP, we can have a more realistic war system after we get a more realistic system for catching and punishing criminals. That is to say, if you don't want wars to be such an absolute means of conducting hostilities in high-sec space, we don't want CONCORD to be such an absolute force in instantly destroying criminals with no chance of survival or escape.

Does that sound like a good compromise to you?

Doc Fury wrote:
You agree to be subject to non-consentual PVP every time you undock.

It's been that way for 10 years and is likely to change pretty soon.

Fixed that for ya.


Concord police are just like real police, they show up long after you are dead...Roll
Baldour Ngarr
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-06-04 12:12:46 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
None of the those three choices will force them to retract the war.


ISK makes me retract a war.


No it doesn't. It might make you CHOOSE to retract one, but you are not obligated to do so whether you want to or not.


Since you seem to think you know me.


Since you seem to be unable to read, let me try words of one syllable.

Me give you money not MAKE you stop war. You CHOOSE to stop war if I give you money.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#50 - 2013-06-04 12:13:32 UTC
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
OK, so someone declares war on my corp - what move do I have that will FORCE them to retract the war?

OK, so someone undercuts my market sell order - what move do I have that will FORCE them to retract their order?

OK, so someone logs in a mining fleet after downtime and mines out the ore in my system while I'm at work - what move do I have that will FORCE them to retract their industrial operations?

OK, so someone warps their Ishtar into the 4/10 DED I'm running - what move do I have that will FORCE them to retract their drones and leave the complex?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Uzbeg Khan
Henehen Conflict Logistics
#51 - 2013-06-04 12:15:56 UTC
Prototype SV-17 wrote:
Stuff


Leave hisec and wardecs stop mattering entirely.

You'll also have alot more fun playing the game.

Things I hate: - Signatures - Irony - Lists

Baldour Ngarr
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-06-04 12:18:31 UTC
Seetesh wrote:
If this is causing you to cry I am more that happy to hold your hand for you and point you in the direction of a "easy" mmo with no real loss factors. If that's too much grow a pair and understand this is eve and its what makes eve so great. Ten years on and I still love this game.


I don't think the OP is too much concerned that he might lose. He just wants to know how he can win. A corp that wants to fight can force another corp into a war; how can the latter corp, force them out of it?

Sure, they can fight, but that's giving the enemy what they want. They can pay someone else to fight, but that's still giving the enemy what they want. They can stay docked for a week but that's just refusing to play until the enemy gets bored.

Since corps can deliver a CONCORD message to other corps that says "you are going to be at war in 24 hours, like it or not" then, for the principle to be equal in both directions, it should be possible to deliver a CONCORD message that says "the war you declared will be over in 24 hours, like it or not."

The OP's idea of making them have a POS somewhere is - I think, but I could be very wrong! - not about forcing the enemy to lose ISK, but about giving you a chance to END the war, in your favour, at a time of YOUR choosing. Take a corp's POS away and the war ends immediately, they lose. At the moment, a war only ends when the corporation who declared it decides that it will end - or forgets to pay the weekly fee. (There used to be a mechanic whereby a CEO could pay another CEO in exchange for an end to the war - I don't think anyone ever used it, because the other CEO could agree the ceasefire then declare another war immediately afterwards, so it was completely pointless. I don't even know if it still exists.)
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-06-04 12:23:40 UTC
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
None of the those three choices will force them to retract the war.


ISK makes me retract a war.


No it doesn't. It might make you CHOOSE to retract one, but you are not obligated to do so whether you want to or not.


Since you seem to think you know me.


Since you seem to be unable to read, let me try words of one syllable.

Me give you money not MAKE you stop war. You CHOOSE to stop war if I give you money.


The current wardeclarations and surrend offers are made in such way that infact you CAN offer money which if accepted WILL end the war declaration. It is up the them to choose whether to take that offer or not, and you to keep rising the stakes until they do. Just because you can't think of any other reasons to make the war go away, doesn't mean there isn't one.

Playing with semantics doesn't change it one bit, on the contrary. It'll just get people annoyed which in return is as good reason as any to do just that and declare a war on you. Hell, even boredom is just as good reason as any.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-06-04 12:23:56 UTC
Prototype SV-17 wrote:
It defeats the whole point of high sec. And rather people want to accept it or not EVE is NOT a PvP-centric game and it is not a true sandbox. Full time PvPers are a minority. I like PvP (mainly large scale), but I acknowledge that most want nothing to do with it or, at the least, don't want to deal with it everywhere they go.


It is PvP-centric as the game revolves around PvP. It has PvE elements as crafting and trading, but you understand quickly what it's true aim is.

The war decs are a mixed bag. It's something PvErs like, since they can just hire a merc corp to beat up some butthole (which in PvE games isn't an option). So it serves a purpose in high sec. Does it have problems? Yes, especially if used as a means to simply harass. But it works in the framework of a PvP game. It gives an otherwise dead aspect of the game something to do; let's mouthbreathers find shiny targets to drool over to kill; and that PvE Jita trader never had to get his hands dirty in PvP. Merc is paid, contractor got the problem settled, and the jerk maybe learned a lesson.

True, a war is about mass destruction and conquering (and more than it's pawns in a war), and the assets folks are willing to depart with are nominal. So "war dec" is stretching the definition of conducting a real war, as folks aren't really losing unrecoverable assets (they can just hop to Jita for replacements). It's more like a "police action" by players.

In the end EvE is about PvP to an extent, as much as it's a sandbox to an extent. Other factors are mixed in to make it not truly a PvP game nor a sandbox (a true sandbox game is god mode, and that won't work well in a MMO). It's just the way it is.

Personally, high sec should be PvP free, but limited to players who haven't skilled to a certain level (e.g., not standard in core skills to survive in a ship). After they do, CONCORD kicks them out into low or null station to play the game as intended. High sec should be a newbie zone, not where low/null sec mains park their alts to craft and trade. When the game is played more like PvP, with hard to recover from assets destroyed, then folks will police themselves better...and the landscape can truly change (e.g., Goons will have to do more than blob).

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Baldour Ngarr
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-06-04 12:26:12 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
[
The current wardeclarations and surrend offers are made in such way that infact you CAN offer money which if accepted WILL end the war declaration. It is up the them to choose whether to take that offer or not, and you to keep rising the stakes until they do. Just because you can't think of any other reasons to make the war go away, doesn't mean there isn't one.


Again you miss the point. The OP is not asking how he can arrange an end to the war; he's asking how he can actually make the declaring corporation LOSE, by them being told the war is over whether they like it or not.
Arduemont
The State of War.
#56 - 2013-06-04 12:27:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Prototype SV-17 wrote:
If you want to declare war you should need to have an operational POS minimum.


I like this. This is a good idea. New POS module incoming! No more one man afk cloaky stealth bomber miner killers with no PvP skill. I personally think we need more anchorable assets in general. It would make warfare feel much more meaningful. I want to see player owned customs offices in highsec.

The POS module could allow people to pay off CONCORD within so many light years of the module. So that people couldn't put up a POS in the ass end of amarr highsec and go kill people in Jita with no risk of the POS ever being found.

PS: Ninja edited.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2013-06-04 12:29:22 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Prototype SV-17 wrote:
If you want to declare war you should need to have an operational POS minimum.


I like this. This is a good idea. New POS module incoming! I didn't even read the rest of the OP.


That would be alright.

And it must be an active pos with a forcefield. All I shall say is. Good luck to a corp finding that pos I am at war with.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2013-06-04 12:29:31 UTC
Baldour Ngarr wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
[
The current wardeclarations and surrend offers are made in such way that infact you CAN offer money which if accepted WILL end the war declaration. It is up the them to choose whether to take that offer or not, and you to keep rising the stakes until they do. Just because you can't think of any other reasons to make the war go away, doesn't mean there isn't one.


Again you miss the point. The OP is not asking how he can arrange an end to the war; he's asking how he can actually make the declaring corporation LOSE, by them being told the war is over whether they like it or not.


A mechanic like that is impossible to create simply because for some wardeclaring corp a simple thing like a POS is completely meaningless, while for others it would be practically irreplaceable. Make their life in the game a living hell by any means you can come up with, once they realize they have no other choice but to end the war, then you can consider them the losers and yourself as the winner.

It's as simple as that.
Baldour Ngarr
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-06-04 12:31:39 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
[quote=Baldour Ngarr][quote=Borlag Crendraven][
The current wardeclarations and surrend offers are made


Bullcrap. It could be an item bought off the market for 1 ISK, for all the difference it would make; just have it be deployed in space somewhere, and findable by the opposition. If your doodahwhatsit is destroyed by the enemy, war over you lose. Can't declare war on the same corporation again for four weeks. (It doesn't stop you fighting other people, it just means those guys beat you.)

There's already a way to make someone fight; this would be a way make them stop.
Arduemont
The State of War.
#60 - 2013-06-04 12:34:14 UTC
Actually, the more I think about the idea of a POS module that allows war decs within a light year range of the module the more I want it. It would solve so many problems it's unreal. It would actually introduce tactics into highsec warfare. I might have to write up a features and ideas discussion for this later today...

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf