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How much of a hit is high sec manufacturing taking with the huge buff to null sec industry?

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Vince Snetterton
#1 - 2013-06-04 05:05:19 UTC
Given the enormous increases in minerals / hour available tomorrow in null sec, and with an order of magnitude increase in copying / invention / mfg slots at stations in null, what impact is this going to have on industry in high sec? ( I have not even begun on what is happening to ice product costs and ice mining mining).

It is pretty clear that null sec is going to be mineral independent of high sec industry quite soon, and when Dust is introduced to null, all industrial POS's will have a 67% bonus in mfg times over high sec.

I am just trying to imagine what the high sec markets and industry will look like 4 months from now, let alone 6 months from now when the null sec cartels have inflicted that more damage on high sec with the December release.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2 - 2013-06-04 06:06:55 UTC
Null will still need to import large quantities of low-ends from highsec

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#3 - 2013-06-04 06:08:23 UTC
Oh and null is going from ~3% of the slot capability of hi-sec to ~10%


So, you know, I guess that's it for hi-sec. Might as well pack your bags now.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#4 - 2013-06-04 06:40:29 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Given the enormous increases in minerals / hour available tomorrow in null sec, and with an order of magnitude increase in copying / invention / mfg slots at stations in null, what impact is this going to have on industry in high sec? ( I have not even begun on what is happening to ice product costs and ice mining mining).

It is pretty clear that null sec is going to be mineral independent of high sec industry quite soon, and when Dust is introduced to null, all industrial POS's will have a 67% bonus in mfg times over high sec.

I am just trying to imagine what the high sec markets and industry will look like 4 months from now, let alone 6 months from now when the null sec cartels have inflicted that more damage on high sec with the December release.



Yes, only having to import 90% of the trit needed to use all of your locally sourced Mega instead of 99% is "mineral independence."


If Nullsec had the same number of slots as HS and the speed bonus applied to stations, the speed bonus might matter, but it's cheaper to rent 3 times the station slots (and pay the associated cost of PLEXing 1 account (3 characters)) than to pay the fuel cost of a slot on a POS (even reduced by Sov + District Control).

HS is absolutely crippled. How can it's effectively infinite supply of effectively free slots in completely safe stations with easy logistics ever compete with Nullsec's limited supply of expensive slots in remarkably unsafe POSes and Outposts with expensive fueled logistics?

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Tinkerbel Ducttape
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-06-04 07:03:28 UTC
Nullsec only has an advantage when it comes down to producing capitals. There is enough demand for low-end minerals for that purpose. We might see capitals get a few % cheaper, but for the rest manufacturing in nullsec will remain insignificant.
Gerard Nardeaux
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-06-04 08:30:51 UTC
The changes to mineral distribution won't do much to damage highsec at all. Nullsec is still dependent on low end minerals found in highsec, and highsec still has the advantage in research and production. Ore refine rates are still lower in Nullsec as well.

CCP moved around mineral distributions in Nullsec to make it not-so-painful to clear out an asteroid belt. That's it, really.
Zifrian
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-06-04 10:34:43 UTC
These changes are mildly helpful. Needed, yes, but there is far more to do to make nullsec anywhere near as close to parity with empire. Go spend some time in nullsec manufacturing anything, and you'll see what I mean.

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Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-06-04 11:54:56 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
These changes are mildly helpful. Needed, yes, but there is far more to do to make nullsec anywhere near as close to parity with empire. Go spend some time in nullsec manufacturing anything, and you'll see what I mean.



Why in the universe would ccp give nullsec parity with Empire?

Look at it this way. It's like if I moved to the middle of nowhere in Alaska and then demanded the government must provide enough gluten free flour to run my baking business...what do you think the answer would be? They would tell me to move my ass to the nearest town or big city and get my own, and quite rightly.

For the life of me I can't understand why gamemakers pander to players who willingly take a certain route and then constantly whine about it.

After reading lot's of threads I have yet to see one by highsec miners wanting the same parity on an ore level, ie nullsec ores and minerals made available in Empire space.

Nobody made anyone move to null, it's just a pity all your whining has won the day....this time Sad




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Zifrian
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-06-04 12:07:06 UTC
Well, I never said it should have parity. The OP implied it was or going to overtake it. However, I think there are many changes to be made and CCP does want it to be largely self sufficient. Furthermore, the game rewards those who take risk. You take no risks in empire industry. I know. I make billions doing a few hours work a month on alts. Making a Moros in nullsec....a tad bit harder.

But from your post it seems you haven't done industry in null either. Seriously, go try it and try to be humble about your experience.

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Vince Snetterton
#10 - 2013-06-04 13:29:04 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Well, I never said it should have parity. The OP implied it was or going to overtake it. However, I think there are many changes to be made and CCP does want it to be largely self sufficient. Furthermore, the game rewards those who take risk. You take no risks in empire industry. I know. I make billions doing a few hours work a month on alts. Making a Moros in nullsec....a tad bit harder.

But from your post it seems you haven't done industry in null either. Seriously, go try it and try to be humble about your experience.


Strange as it may seem to you, some of use HAVE done null sec industry, and know precisely what advantages and disadvantages null sec had before this massive buff.

The plan is to make null completely independent of high sec, yet at the same time, keep high sec completely dependent on null and wh space for morphite, among other things. And at the same time give null sec huge cost advantages in mfg, particularly T2 mfg, so they can dominate that market and divert even more of the Eve economy through the hands of a very small amount of players.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#11 - 2013-06-04 14:04:47 UTC
Gerard Nardeaux wrote:
The changes to mineral distribution won't do much to damage highsec at all. Nullsec is still dependent on low end minerals found in highsec, and highsec still has the advantage in research and production. Ore refine rates are still lower in Nullsec as well.

CCP moved around mineral distributions in Nullsec to make it not-so-painful to clear out an asteroid belt. That's it, really.


I agree 100%, The ore composition changes was needed, and a long time coming. But will have no noticeable impact on high sec industry. All rocks in hidden belts made available through industrial upgrades will now be worth mining for more than just flipping the sites. This alone would have been a nice buff to null sec mining, which it needed due to high sec mining actually being more profitable recently.

However that buff was offset by a significant increase in risk to mining those belts, they are not longer hidden. The limited safety provided by mining in thos hidden belts is gone. Those belts are now no safer than mining in the static belts, which nobody does. What ever minor gains would have been seen resulting from the ore composition changes will be nullified by the fact that mining with be more dangerous and less efficient in null sec now. But I am done arguing on this point, hundreds of posts in dozens of threads, and the only reply from CCP is learn to adapt. yes, lets learn to fight PVP ganking ships with mining barges, because you know, they gave us tools to make that possible.
Zifrian
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-06-04 16:00:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
Well, I never said it should have parity. The OP implied it was or going to overtake it. However, I think there are many changes to be made and CCP does want it to be largely self sufficient. Furthermore, the game rewards those who take risk. You take no risks in empire industry. I know. I make billions doing a few hours work a month on alts. Making a Moros in nullsec....a tad bit harder.

But from your post it seems you haven't done industry in null either. Seriously, go try it and try to be humble about your experience.


Strange as it may seem to you, some of use HAVE done null sec industry, and know precisely what advantages and disadvantages null sec had before this massive buff.

The plan is to make null completely independent of high sec, yet at the same time, keep high sec completely dependent on null and wh space for morphite, among other things. And at the same time give null sec huge cost advantages in mfg, particularly T2 mfg, so they can dominate that market and divert even more of the Eve economy through the hands of a very small amount of players.

It's not a "massive" buff. Anyone who has done significant industry in nullsec knows that.

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#13 - 2013-06-04 16:51:03 UTC
The only way for the extra stuff in Null to get used is if people move out there to use it. If that happens, then there is less competition for those who stay in high sec.

There may be less demand for stuff to be imported from high, but only if people move which results in less supply from high.

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#14 - 2013-06-04 17:32:18 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:


The plan is to make null completely independent of high sec


No it isn't

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kharamete
Royal Assent
#15 - 2013-06-04 18:07:57 UTC
The problem in null isn't access to trit.

I have 400 million trit that I got over the period of about four weeks, and I didn't mine a single grain of it. I got it all out of rats.

I can't give that trit away. People groan when I bring it up. Hell, in high sec it would be worth 5.20 per unit today. I would LOVE to import it to high sec. There I could get rid of it.

The problem is not minerals. The problem is having resources to consume those minerals.

It gets a little bit better today.

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Q 5
999 HOLDINGS LLC
#16 - 2013-06-04 19:15:47 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Given the enormous increases in minerals / hour available tomorrow in null sec, and with an order of magnitude increase in copying / invention / mfg slots at stations in null, what impact is this going to have on industry in high sec? ( I have not even begun on what is happening to ice product costs and ice mining mining).

It is pretty clear that null sec is going to be mineral independent of high sec industry quite soon, and when Dust is introduced to null, all industrial POS's will have a 67% bonus in mfg times over high sec.

I am just trying to imagine what the high sec markets and industry will look like 4 months from now, let alone 6 months from now when the null sec cartels have inflicted that more damage on high sec with the December release.


I'm an indy and I am soooooo happy, I am very, very pleased with that change, all that itching that null was making about us hi sec'ers including the Goonies, now they got much of what they wanted will this effect hi sec, most likely.

But if your profits depend on only one source of income then you need to expand.

I am looking forward to the quite that we should now be able to enjoy, ooops, I forgot...we are talking about people.
Vince Snetterton
#17 - 2013-06-04 19:39:20 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:


The plan is to make null completely independent of high sec


No it isn't


Right, and we are supposed to believe you.
Guess you don't think any of us read your multiple attacks on high sec industry in your CSM campaign.

You and the lead goon rep on the CSM must just be giggling now, plotting what you can do next to high sec.
Huttan Funaila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-06-04 20:04:44 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Given the enormous increases in minerals / hour available tomorrow in null sec, and with an order of magnitude increase in copying / invention / mfg slots at stations in null, what impact is this going to have on industry in high sec?

Zero. From my time in nullsec, the largest hurdle to industry was the poor refining capacity. Only Minmatar outposts have refining built in, and refining in a POS is a pain in the keester.

Vince Snetterton wrote:


It is pretty clear that null sec is going to be mineral independent of high sec industry quite soon, and when Dust is introduced to null, all industrial POS's will have a 67% bonus in mfg times over high sec.
The desire was for there to be more industry in low/null. Even with this buff, it is more practical to ship minerals to high, build there and ship the finished goods back to null. When people stop talking about "mineral compression" then CCP has achieved their goal.


If making nullsec independent was an actual goal, manufacturing and research slots would have had to go up 100x instead of 2x. Also, every outpost would need to have refining built in. Or, refining arrays would need to work like NPC station refining: skill based yields, and reasonable turn-around times. "3 hours to get the minerals out" is not reasonable.

Vince Snetterton wrote:
I am just trying to imagine what the high sec markets and industry will look like 4 months from now, let alone 6 months from now when the null sec cartels have inflicted that more damage on high sec with the December release.
Minerals and industry will look just like they do before Odyssey.
Ginger Barbarella
#19 - 2013-06-04 20:31:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Null will still need to import large quantities of low-ends from highsec


But I thought this was supposed to be a boon to null industry?!??!!?!

Huh, go figure....

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Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-06-05 10:20:17 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Null will still need to import large quantities of low-ends from highsec


But I thought this was supposed to be a boon to null industry?!??!!?!

Huh, go figure....


A boon? A bit, yes, but as usual, CCP managed to overlook the fact that we get VERY little mexallon out of nullsec grav sites, AFTER the change. Still have to important tons of trit, pyerite, mexallon, and some isogen.
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