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Feedback for Hacking/Archaeology feature from 27/5/13 onward

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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#521 - 2013-06-04 01:00:36 UTC
What I've learned about cargo scanner is that scanning cans is totally pointless because its unreliable.

The cans may contain items which dont appear on scan, or dont contain items which are displayed in scan - basically after the scan you know exactly the same as before what loot is possible and what is not, you could simply omit that without loosing any information.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#522 - 2013-06-04 01:11:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Robert Caldera wrote:
What I've learned about cargo scanner is that scanning cans is totally pointless because its unreliable.

The cans may contain items which dont appear on scan, or dont contain items which are displayed in scan - basically after the scan you know exactly the same as before what loot is possible and what is not, you could simply omit that without loosing any information.


I've had the exact opposite result. Every time I've scanned a can I've been able to cherry pick whatever comes up on scan(Decryptors, BPCs, Data Cores) and when I grab cans that aren't shown on the result all I get is NPC junk.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Telrei
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#523 - 2013-06-04 01:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Telrei
Robert Caldera wrote:
so, NPC are removed from relic sites?

"This gate is locked! There are synchronized gate scramblers on all hostile entities in this deadspace pocket. Unless you are physically inside one of them to unscramble the signal, you must simply clear the vicinity of enemy ships. So grab your guns."

3 NPC BS waiting to be killed in a "Forgotten Ruins" Site.

then this in "Digital Complex" Data Site


Oh please god yes.......

Please tell me that you replaced can spew on success and instead actually gave us a valid reason to either have a fleet up or an expensive ship/high skill sp char.

I fully approve if true.... and as I said this forces fleets for hacking/Arch in a EvE way not in a we're going to force teamplay through a new gimmick even on success.....

As also said in previous post.... If you left can spew in for failure I also approve.. You fail the hack tough luck you failed welcome to EvE
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#524 - 2013-06-04 01:40:21 UTC
Sorry to inform you, Telrei.

Those sites are not actually Data/Relic sites. They're Combat sites that were mis-categorized because of their names.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#525 - 2013-06-04 01:46:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Toralen
Robert Caldera wrote:
What I've learned about cargo scanner is that scanning cans is totally pointless because its unreliable.

The cans may contain items which dont appear on scan, or dont contain items which are displayed in scan - basically after the scan you know exactly the same as before what loot is possible and what is not, you could simply omit that without loosing any information.


No, the cargo scan has been reliable to me. Only the random crap doesn't show up. The goodies do.
Which cans exactly to scoop isn't entirely clear to me yet tho. But other players will have figured that out in no time once the spew hits TQ.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#526 - 2013-06-04 01:52:34 UTC
Datacores and Decrypters=Parts Container
BPCs and skillbooks=Data

Relic sites I really haven't payed much attention to as of yet.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#527 - 2013-06-04 01:57:10 UTC
I could swear i got some decrytors from data cans.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#528 - 2013-06-04 01:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Johan Toralen wrote:
I could swear i got some decrytors from data cans.


Out of the 8 sites I've ran so far I've been 100% on whats on the scan, using that. I will run some more and focus on data to see, but i've only seen them drop from parts.

E: Looks like Scrap containers can be ignored completely in both. Most stuff in Relic sites come from Equipment, Parts, and Materials, Data(if they are skillbooks). Data sites are just Data Cans and Parts Cans, everything else is junk(unless you like the heavy parts which come from equipment cans).

I could be wrong but this is what I have seen so far. Though Relics I've ignored quite a bit so yeah.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#529 - 2013-06-04 04:00:39 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
edit 2: in crude ISK/hour terms, that monument site was worth between 600m isk/hr on the low end and 1.4b isk/hr on the high end.

Bullshit. There's no way you're making this much.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
LiKuei
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#530 - 2013-06-04 04:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: LiKuei
So the new mechanic, which is going to be presented to new players as a valid source of income in-game, and is going to be presented as such requires the following:

Known:
1. A ship they can fit all of the items for exploration (unless you are going to give EVERY new player a Gnosis)
2. Four skill books for items currently in game (Probe launcher, Codebreaker, Cargo Scanner and Analyzer ... two names will change)
3. Four modules that require skill level 5 to use (CCPs minimum standard for T2 items)

Ok. This is fair if you are going to be presented as a viable primary source of income. Anything less would unbalance it vs the other professions.

Now, the things they have to contend with once they acquire all of this:

Highsec:
1. Competition for a very limited source of income.
2. Will have to roll against a loot table to see what they may or may not get when ...
3. they have to deal with loot spew. Loot spew can be mitigated by ...
4. having a friend sit there and wait for you to either succeed or fail

In Low sec/Null:
5. Players intent on your destruction

While I do not disagree that the risk/reward should be greater for Low/Null, I do disagree with additional hurdles that low SP players are going to have to overcome ... primarily the loot spew. For team play to be profitable, loot generated would have to be ~1.2 as, at a minimum, there would be two people. MOST people who I know/see do exploration do it solo, with profits paying for their upgrades and a reserve for the inevitable destruction of that ship. While the current professions do support group play, it is based on mutual need and benefit ... risks can be mitigated and rewards shared. While the same can be said of team exploration, the profit margin will be drastically reduced as all loot could very well be split 50/50, more as each additional person is added to catch cans, with little to no reward if one turns out to be to not share the same shared mindset.

In the other careers, as you improve skills, ships and modules, the amount an individual can make improves, irregardless if you partner runs with the mission money, the salvage money or the ore ... the current implementation does not allow for it ... you don't get the cans (or your partner runs with the loot), you don't get paid.

Find a new use for the 'loot pinata' (as people are calling it) ... it does not fit well with a career path you are actively encouraging newer players to pursue.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#531 - 2013-06-04 04:45:59 UTC
LiKuei wrote:
2. Four skill books for encryption (one for each race)

The hell are you talking about? What does any of this have to do with decryption?

LiKuei wrote:
4. Four modules that require skill level 4 to use (CCPs minimum standard for T2 items)

Which modules are you talking about? The T2 data analyzer, T2 relic analyzer, and all the T2 scan arrays require their skill at level 5.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Telrei
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#532 - 2013-06-04 04:51:26 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Sorry to inform you, Telrei.

Those sites are not actually Data/Relic sites. They're Combat sites that were mis-categorized because of their names.


One can dream.... Cry
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#533 - 2013-06-04 05:07:05 UTC
LiKuei wrote:
So the new mechanic, which is going to be presented to new players as a valid source of income in-game, and is going to be presented as such requires the following:

Known:
1. A ship they can fit all of the items for exploration (unless you are going to give EVERY new player a Gnosis)
2. Four skill books for encryption (one for each race)
3. Four skill books for items currently in game (Probe launcher, Codebreaker, cargo scanner and Analyzer)
4. Four modules that require skill level 4 to use (CCPs minimum standard for T2 items)

Ok. This is fair if you are going to be presented as a viable primary source of income. Anything less would unbalance it vs the other professions.

Now, the things they have to contend with once they acquire all of this:

Highsec:
1. Competition for a very limited source of income.
2. Will have to roll against a loot table to see what they may or may not get when ...
3. they have to deal with loot spew. Loot spew can be mitigated by ...
4. having a friend sit there and wait for you to either succeed or fail

In Low sec/Null:
5. Players intent on your destruction

While I do not disagree that the risk/reward should be greater for Low/Null, I do disagree with additional hurdles that low SP players are going to have to overcome ... primarily the loot spew. For team play to be profitable, loot generated would have to be ~1.2 as, at a minimum, there would be two people. MOST people who I know/see do exploration do it solo, with profits paying for their upgrades and a reserve for the inevitable destruction of that ship. While the current professions do support group play, it is based on mutual need and benefit ... risks can be mitigated and rewards shared. While the same can be said of team exploration, the profit margin will be drastically reduced as all loot could very well be split 50/50, more as each additional person is added to catch cans, with little to no reward if one turns out to be to not share the same shared mindset.

In the other careers, as you improve skills, ships and modules, the amount an individual can make improves, irregardless if you partner runs with the mission money, the salvage money or the ore ... the current implementation does not allow for it ... you don't get the cans (or your partner runs with the loot), you don't get paid.

Find a new use for the 'loot pinata' (as people are calling it) ... it does not fit well with a career path you are actively encouraging newer players to pursue.


The new probing mods require L3 for T1 and L5 for T2 of their respected skills(Astro Acuisition, Pinpointing, Rangefinding).

Relic/Data analyzers aren't new they are just renamed Codebreaker and Analyzer, skills are the same for T1 and T2.

Also interesting enough Virus bonus is capped at 40. So putting on mods or using ships that put your virus str past 40 is pointless, as I don't believe it increases your overall HP.

I do agree that Exploration is lacking as a progressive profession, pretty much you are better off just stopping at a Cov-Ops and L4 astro skills, and not even look towards a all-in-one ship or a T3 as the final progression(unless you plan on doing WHs)..

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#534 - 2013-06-04 05:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsubutai
Johan Toralen wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
edit 2: in crude ISK/hour terms, that monument site was worth between 600m isk/hr on the low end and 1.4b isk/hr on the high end.


That's a strange way to look at isk/h. When i station trade and make a billion profit on some item does that mean my isk/h is around 60b?

I would be really really surprised if i play for 4 hours on tuesday night and come back with 2-6 billion. Pretty unrealistic unless i luck into a pos bpc.

I specifically said it was a crude measure; the point is that the high end 0.0 hacking sites are now quite lucrative, to the point that they are at least competitive with the high end combat sites. As such, they should require a similar investment to run, and farming them should entail similar levels of risk. You'd be lucky to get multiple billions for your two hours given that there will be a few minutes of moving from system to system and probing in between running sites, but I'd be surprised if you didn't get a few hundred million assuming you have appropriate skills, are reasonably good at the hacking minigame, and are in blue space or a quiet backwater.


Quote:
Do you feel a assault frigate should be able to compete with that Machariel on the same or at a better level?

Neither is good. Being able to farm high end or very lucrative content in cheap throwaway ships such as covops or the T1 exploration frigates just devalues the content (see FW plexing and missioning), but the same is true for farming in more expensive ships if they're essentially immune to the intervention of hostile players. I'm fine with tech 3s having a bonus to virus strength, but I think that bonus and the nullifier/cloak subs should be mutually exclusive, for exactly the same reason that tech 3s fit for running combat sites can be ganky or cloaky/nullified, but not both at once.



James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
edit 2: in crude ISK/hour terms, that monument site was worth between 600m isk/hr on the low end and 1.4b isk/hr on the high end.

Bullshit. There's no way you're making this much.

As I said to Johan above, I was using the crudest possible measure - ISK value of loot gained divided by time taken to do the site. My point wasn't "you will make billions per hour", it was "the value of these sites is now comparable to that of other high end pve content, and as such, you should not be able to farm it in ships that are either so cheap as to be completely disposable to almost any established player or in ships that are cloaky, nullified, and multiply-stabbed."
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#535 - 2013-06-04 07:52:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Brooks Puuntai wrote:

I've had the exact opposite result. Every time I've scanned a can I've been able to cherry pick whatever comes up on scan(Decryptors, BPCs, Data Cores) and when I grab cans that aren't shown on the result all I get is NPC junk.

well, it did definitely happen for me, stuff popped out which hasnt been on scan, so who can certainly tell if tower BPC dont surprisingly pop out despite scan displayed otherwise too??
Why to scan at all if you would hack all cans anyways disregarding scan result??
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#536 - 2013-06-04 08:30:41 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:

I've had the exact opposite result. Every time I've scanned a can I've been able to cherry pick whatever comes up on scan(Decryptors, BPCs, Data Cores) and when I grab cans that aren't shown on the result all I get is NPC junk.

well, it did definitely happen for me, stuff popped out which hasnt been on scan, so who can certainly tell if tower BPC dont surprisingly pop out despite scan displayed otherwise too??
Why to scan at all if you would hack all cans anyways disregarding scan result??


They changed the spew mechanics so it is almost impossible now to get all of them solo. So cherry picking is the best option.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#537 - 2013-06-04 08:43:10 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:

I've had the exact opposite result. Every time I've scanned a can I've been able to cherry pick whatever comes up on scan(Decryptors, BPCs, Data Cores) and when I grab cans that aren't shown on the result all I get is NPC junk.

well, it did definitely happen for me, stuff popped out which hasnt been on scan, so who can certainly tell if tower BPC dont surprisingly pop out despite scan displayed otherwise too??
Why to scan at all if you would hack all cans anyways disregarding scan result??


They changed the spew mechanics so it is almost impossible now to get all of them solo. So cherry picking is the best option.


How is this related to my concern? I know I need an alt to get all lootz.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#538 - 2013-06-04 08:52:03 UTC
What wasn't on scan that you got?

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#539 - 2013-06-04 09:03:39 UTC
Dunno im not at home now will check recorded clips later
Galatea Galilei
Summa Universalia
#540 - 2013-06-04 10:34:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Galatea Galilei
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Kel hound, I'll quote myself from the previous page:
Quote:
Adding things to the overview, this is really an option of last resort that I think fixes things which are usability defects. It's the "easy way out" as it's the workaround in EVE to dealing with the problems that exist interacting with things in the scene.


I don't think we're dead set against it but would prefer to make the space interaction work.


The only way space interaction will work here is if the objects don't move. I can't click on a moving icon to save my life. If these things are moving and not appearing on the overview... that effectively ends my career in EVE. Loot from exploration will be simply irretrievable... or balanced on what a typical player can successfully click on in a given amount of time, which will be far more than I'm capable of clicking on in the same amount of time.

It's distressing to hear you talk about the overview that way, really. I get around in most games using tab-targeting, but EVE lacks that (EVE keyboard interface is pretty bad all-around, really -- even the so-called keyboard shortcuts often don't work unless combined with a precise mouse-click). The overview at least makes the lack of decent keyboard interface manageable. If EVE is trying to move away from the overview, then it really needs to improve and expand keyboard interaction with objects in space, or the game becomes very unrewarding for people lacking great mouse skills.