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Faction Warfare: Moving Forward.....

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Author
Johnny Punisher
Paronit
#501 - 2011-11-05 17:34:32 UTC
I think its enough with the silly mission stuff, back to pew pew :)

Johnny Punisher wrote:


What you SHOULD fix:

1) pirate frigs not allowed into minor plexes.

2) no standing loss in remote repping friendly militia member who is pirate/gcc

3) make plexes worth doing / dont spawn most of them after dt


I have to change this list because of the coming winter patches changes to dramiels (nerf) & destroyers (buff). I don't think pirate frigs are gonna be that overpowered in minor plexes after that... So only 2) and 3) left. Though like I said earlier in this thread, I don't have any good ideas how to do the 3). Good luck ccp :)
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#502 - 2011-11-05 18:07:58 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
All you want to do is to protect your own income on system that is open for all who have faction standing 0.5+...

Not really no, the protectionism is nice and snug with you it seems .. you would stand to loose a substantial amount of income should such a thing be done .. having alts in all militia's is one thing but if the earning of ISK/LP from missions is tied directly to the action of the individual character there is no way of "gaming" the system.

CCP already acknowledges that FW should be about the pew, not the missions and the one should feed the other, both in the actual FW promo material but also in the fact that a mission takes 5 minutes to complete solo in a PvP ship and it pops an overview beacon.
The mere fact that it is being farmed as heavily as it is proves beyond doubt that it is not what was intended .. it is the single highest source of income for an individual anywhere in Eve .. that should belong in blob-land not Empire according to risk/reward system.
So we can either reduce FW mission income to a pittance or make certain that the people it was meant for are the ones who benefit .. since the former effectively kills FW in its cradle the only real option is the latter.

PS: Starting to see why Hans chose to stick you on his 'ignore posts' list .. you are really not contributing much of anything Sad



Yea, it is sad that your ideas usually do not stand closer look. Better to block me so you can have illusion going on.

How much you have plexing points?
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#503 - 2011-11-05 18:27:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Hirana Yoshida
Bad Messenger wrote:
How much you have plexing points?

You sure you want to measure penises grasshopper? Smile

From useless Militia Pane:
VP Total: 0.4M
Kills Total: 1315 (2700 on killboard)

Have never used an alt, have never speed-tanked or used "tricks" (read borderline exploits). Haven't really plexed the last year, only bother when there are fights to be had but one side always decide to blob Sad
Hwong Jian
Perkone
Caldari State
#504 - 2011-11-05 18:27:09 UTC
Haven't really had much time to reply to Hans' "you don't know FW so stay out of it" jab, but I will.

In the meantime, damn all of you for not saying this yet. (Psst, Hans, here's the proof that I have been following the thread.)

Set Amarr <-> Caldari and Minmatar <-> Gallente as "My Militia" on the overview. There is NO reason what-so-ever for Amarr and Caldari or Minmatar and Gallente to automatically be purple to each other on the overview.

Seriously, that would make cross-faction ops, or even just roaming through space so much easier.
Shalee Lianne
Banana-Republic.
Shadow Cartel
#505 - 2011-11-07 06:38:36 UTC
/ gives this thread attention
http://amarrian.blogspot.com/  ~ Roleplay blog. http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#506 - 2011-11-07 16:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Johnny Punisher wrote:


We have several ways how to make the farming much harder. We could make a mafia-style system where you have to earn your "missioning rights" with pvp, otherwise u get ganked/chased by major fw corps (might hurt standings in long run). We could use alts in opposing militia to chase farmers. We could make a deal with opposing militia to make big ops to chase farmers and leave pvp missioners alone etc etc... Might take alot of effort but its possible...

edit: check what goons are doing to highsec ice-mining "farming"
Give me a way of griefing carebear mission runners and I'll get rid of them for you. Big smile Put the "poison pill" into all missions CCP, please. There will be real risk that is PLAYER DRIVEN, faction mod prices will skyrocket, real pvpers will have to actually form gang and pvp when opposed. Farmers with alts will be disappointed.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#507 - 2011-11-07 19:49:41 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Cearain wrote:
... Only ccp can decide if they will puke npcs everywhere forcing people to use pve fits so they can't pvp if someone else shows up. Only ccp can decide if they will let militias know when complexes are taken so they can actually fight for them instead of having people orbitting buttons all alone in low sec back waters.


I do not know what you are talking about, we took all systems and i we were using only pvp fitted ships.

We did not have any problems to know where plexes were or who did those and when.

If you will send notification you have to still wait enemy to show up. And if you are too power full it will take several hours for militia to form up something that can beat people in plex.

10min 15min and 20min are not enough to make 15 jumps with proper sized ships, so if you want to take systems you have to keep some kind of control in area all the time.

You need organisation that can handle all this, intel, plexing, pvp, logistics etc...

We even told several time to gallente where we were plexing, but most of times they just did not show up. So notification hardly does not solve anything.






I don't know about gallente npcs but you will not want to fight minmatar npcs with a buffer tank. (the most common pvp type of tank)

If the npcs are irrelevant they are not even effecting hwo you fit your ship then why have them at all?

Finally there should be enough plexes being taken throughout the 8 regions of fw that its people would need to split up and constantly be going from one plex to another. There would rarely be enough time to wait for blobs to form.

Let me ask you why you told them where you were plexing? Did you tell them because you wanted some pvp and letting them know where you where was the obvious way to get PvP? That is sort of my point. Letting the enemy know where their military complexes are being taken is a pretty obvious way to increase pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#508 - 2011-11-07 19:49:55 UTC
double post

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#509 - 2011-11-07 19:57:41 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Cearain, even you must realise that a notification will not solve everything .. it can-will at best be a small part of a comprehensive revamp of the whole she-bang. If it was added as a stand-alone fix you'd instantly put at least Amarr at a stupidly big disadvantage due to geography/layout of FW area.
Amarr has 15 jumps from hub to furthest system going through 2-3 literal bottle-necks whereas Matar has at most 7 jumps with multiple routes available .. won't matter in the long run or in Eve terms as Amarr is obviously the one destined to soldier on when all others have been vanquished, but still.....


Yes even I agree notifications won't solve everything. However it is a no brainer solution that would have a huge impact on FW plexing and make it the most fun someone can have in eve. Big smile

As far as the bottlenecks for amarr go I have noticed those too. But I am not sure that is really an issue with the notification system, as opposed to an issue in general. Also I don't think that is such a big deal.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#510 - 2011-11-07 20:20:58 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
The mere fact that it is being farmed as heavily as it is proves beyond doubt that it is not what was intended .. it is the single highest source of income for an individual anywhere in Eve .. that should belong in blob-land not Empire according to risk/reward system. ...


I like your solution where you also require vp (assuming plexing does not remain a pve activity) or other similar solutions that require pvp kills for missions.

However I ran a bunch fw missions the other day. And I have to say I do not think it was all that profitable.

But I have to admit it was pretty fun. (not that I would want to do this more than 2 or 3 times a year) Lots of people where camping my missions. They seemed to be having a good time as well.


I think the fw mission design is actually a great way to do low sec missions.

Also as far as the risk versus reward do you think doing missions in null sec is much more dangerous than in low sec? It seems to me that people who rat deep in their own sov null sec have things pretty easy and safe.

But I will agree that measures should be taken so people who never pvp aren't just farming the missions.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#511 - 2011-11-08 01:37:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Johnny Punisher wrote:
I think its enough with the silly mission stuff, back to pew pew :)

Johnny Punisher wrote:


What you SHOULD fix:

1) pirate frigs not allowed into minor plexes.

2) no standing loss in remote repping friendly militia member who is pirate/gcc

3) make plexes worth doing / dont spawn most of them after dt


I have to change this list because of the coming winter patches changes to dramiels (nerf) & destroyers (buff). I don't think pirate frigs are gonna be that overpowered in minor plexes after that...



If they do the changes I saw to destroyers, minor plexes will be *all* catalysts and thrashers. Since destroyers are some of the most boring ships in eve this is not good for fw plexxing.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#512 - 2011-11-08 05:09:48 UTC
I wish the PERVS bloc would stop pretending it has any desire to see FW balanced. It's not convincing.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Simyaldee
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#513 - 2011-11-08 06:14:36 UTC
Indeed, I have no idea where PERVS are but it certainly isn't anywhere near FW. Last time I heard about them was when they decced The4, then did nothing with that *shrug*. But indeed. Stop posting. Your providing no positive ideas and your main point seems to be that PERVS conquered lo-sec with a multitude of alts or some ****...speaking for myself and I think most others. We. Don't. Care! Also your English is atrocious are you using google translate or something? Your messing up the conversation, CCP probably hasn't replied to this thread because of your trolling. Once you have something positive to contribute whether or not its critical of someone elses point go ahead and post, until then just stop posting, you read like a ****** who has the cognitive ability of a Twelve year old. Now sit back and be quiet.


NOW Back to a point I have made several times. Encouraging small scale PvP through an easy way to earn isk is and will be a boon to Faction Warfare. Forcing People to PvP is not the way to go. If the missions are rebalanced to make them unsoloable in a bomber ganking will become much easier.

Making my point again there needs to be SOME form of connection between PvP and/or Plexing Activities. I still advocate my Agent Standing Solution where Agent Standings decrease over time but PvP kills and Plexing activity give a significant boost. Missions still give standings but not enough for you to comfortably do level 4's. I have seen other ways as well, but the fact remains the same. Their MUST be a way for those of us who are in FW for PvP can earn a living while at the very least discouraging Farming alts.

See you Starside
~Simyaldee

Member, Fighter and FC for The Great Harmon Institute of Technology 

Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#514 - 2011-11-08 13:42:34 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
I wish the PERVS bloc would stop pretending it has any desire to see FW balanced. It's not convincing.


Yea, but i am trying to be nice and tell how we will abuse new rules you proposed.

But i am not good being nice, i am bad Ugh
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#515 - 2011-11-08 13:50:41 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Let me ask you why you told them where you were plexing? Did you tell them because you wanted some pvp and letting them know where you where was the obvious way to get PvP? That is sort of my point. Letting the enemy know where their military complexes are being taken is a pretty obvious way to increase pvp.



Yes, we did plex in Old Man Star (1 jump from Villore, gallente ex staging system.) several times, and we told gallente that we take plex in OMS and what ships we had and that they will have 30min time to form fleet and come to kick our ass, we even stopped timer and waited.

No one ever came.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#516 - 2011-11-08 14:02:34 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:

Yes, we did plex in Old Man Star (1 jump from Villore, gallente ex staging system.) several times, and we told gallente that we take plex in OMS and what ships we had and that they will have 30min time to form fleet and come to kick our ass, we even stopped timer and waited.

No one ever came.[/quote] Listen to this guy. If one side has a clear superiority in a plex, the other side will likely not bother engaging. With PERVS, they had a reputation of fighting only to win, and therefore everybody thought they had something up their sleeve in any plex fight. Therefore, no fight.

You can do anything you want with the plexing mechanic, incentivizing people to fight in plexes, whatever. If one side decides to not lose ships (only engages with a 95% chance of winning), then you're not going to get fights in plexes.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#517 - 2011-11-08 14:40:36 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Yea, but i am trying to be nice and tell how we will abuse new rules you proposed.


If you actually cared about balance and not just tools you could use to "win" (because honestly, is it really winning if you couldn't do it legitimately?), you would not abuse game mechanics.

You don't want any changes made to the system whatsoever, because the current broken mess benefits you.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Shalee Lianne
Banana-Republic.
Shadow Cartel
#518 - 2011-11-08 14:47:09 UTC
...you'd get fights in plexes if they were worth fighting for.
http://amarrian.blogspot.com/  ~ Roleplay blog. http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#519 - 2011-11-08 14:52:56 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:

Yes, we did plex in Old Man Star (1 jump from Villore, gallente ex staging system.) several times, and we told gallente that we take plex in OMS and what ships we had and that they will have 30min time to form fleet and come to kick our ass, we even stopped timer and waited.

No one ever came.

X Gallentius wrote:

Listen to this guy. If one side has a clear superiority in a plex, the other side will likely not bother engaging. With PERVS, they had a reputation of fighting only to win, and therefore everybody thought they had something up their sleeve in any plex fight. Therefore, no fight.

You can do anything you want with the plexing mechanic, incentivizing people to fight in plexes, whatever. If one side decides to not lose ships (only engages with a 95% chance of winning), then you're not going to get fights in plexes.



This is what we seem to agree on:

1) If you want pvp its obvious that its best when the enemy knows where you are.

2) When you are forced to "announce" your location to the other side, they will assume you have something up your sleeve.

CCP should not ignore the obvious first point. Nor should they force us to announce where we are. If the game mechanics are simply telling the enemy where their military complexes are attacked there will be no reason to think they have anything "up their sleeve" and the fighting can start.

Also the side with less people need to have other plexes they can go for if larger side has a blob in one system. If the caldari outnumber the Gallente and they are sitting in oms then the mechanics should make it so Gallente can go to *several* systems 10-15 jumps away from oms and get some plexing done. Then if the caldari don't want to lose those plexes they will need to split up and not just all sit their in a big lump in oms.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#520 - 2011-11-08 15:06:16 UTC
Shalee Lianne wrote:
...you'd get fights in plexes if they were worth fighting for.



I think we all agree they should add more value/worth than they currently do. But they can't go overboard due to potential exploits and the fact that that if occupancy really mattered more people would tend to join the winning side, making the war lopsided.

Because of these inherent limitations I think they need to do more than make plexing a more lucrative activity.

If they really want fw to be something great they need to make plexing fun - not just give a bunch of isk for doing it. For me that means they need to make it a small scale pvp activity and not a pve one. (nor should they make it a “null sec blob always wins” mechanic – people who want that already have null sec.)


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815