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Feedback for Hacking/Archaeology feature from 27/5/13 onward

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Naomi Hale
#381 - 2013-05-31 14:10:51 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
CCP Bayesian:
Did you count concessions that it is not as unbearable as it was in its first iteration as positive?

I may have overlooked someone, but I did not see anyone that outright stated he preferred the spew containers over a regular container. (Minigame to open it aside)


I here by state that I prefer the new loot mechanic over the old static containers. There, that's a +1.

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.
Sheena Tzash
Doomheim
#382 - 2013-05-31 14:11:03 UTC
Raven Solaris wrote:

Edit - What about the Echelon?


Yeah, I've been meaning to wipe the dust of that old thing...

Well.. when it actually becomes USEFUL ;)
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#383 - 2013-05-31 14:28:54 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
[quote=Sven Viko VIkolander]

Negative: 6
Positive: 6
Neutral: 5

At least from my sense of the feedback we've come along way from the original very negative impressions.


Perhaps we are reading positive in different ways, as I see the most positive posts still just saying stuff like "this change [e.g. making cans fly slower] makes the loot spew bearable" and I don't see posts like "wow I really look forward to quickly clicking in space chasing loot it took 15 minutes of repetitive clicks to get." When I see negative reviews from vet explorers like JonnyPew ( e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qo81Y79558), who are very rarely negative, that tends to bias me against a change, sure. But no point debating about this, numbers later on won't lie. The numbers vindicated most of Retribution, we'll see if they vindicate exploration in Odyssey, which I certainly hope they do for low sec esp. etc.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#384 - 2013-05-31 14:29:32 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
I just want to tackle a few of these points. Firstly I don't think a mechanic can be inherently bad if a portion of people like it and the trend we've seen so far on these threads is that as we make changes the feedback is becoming more positive. I think the mechanic in it's original form is annoying, unsatisfying and feels bad because it is inherently random.
Well it's becoming more positive in the same way that if somebody is punching you repeatedly in the face, and then slows down the rate of punching and doesn't punch you quite as hard. Sure it's a improvement... but you are still getting punched in the face! The change doesn't make it a positive liked experience, it just makes it less bad. Maybe with a bunch more work it will reach the level of the current "click & wait" hacking modules - not particularly odious, but not entertaining either. But isn't that the reason that you changed the hacking mods to begin with? To make them fun?

And this mechanic just isn't fun. There is no drama or dynamic to grab your attention. You aren't struggling against an adversary for success. You are just laboring against your own ineptitude hoping that you don't lose anything that you "won" in the hacking game. There is no victory. There is only "not losing" what you previously "earned". The best you can hope for is a tie. And that ain't fun.
Veyer Erastus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#385 - 2013-05-31 14:30:04 UTC
Solkara Starlock wrote:

I'm not so thrilled having to tag along a cargoscanner in my scanning ship to guarantee my exploration income. The allocation of mid slots on the scanning ships is already quite taxing with the new scanning mods, the data and relic analyser and perhaps a propulsion mod. Basicly, Anathema and Cheetah are at a distinct disadvantage because of that.


Think about non-tengu t3s. Like Legion. Even plugging data analyzer is hurting. Not even talking about anything else.
CCP Bayesian
#386 - 2013-05-31 14:36:10 UTC
Sven Viko VIkolander, absolutely we're keenly aware that this part of the feature has had lots of negative reactions and will be watching the statistics we get back about use very closely.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Naomi Hale
#387 - 2013-05-31 14:38:43 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
Thinking a bit more about the Tengu virus bonus. If it was removed or nerfed i would defo use a t2 frig instead. Wouldn't want to risk losing a faction pos bpc because i didn't max out my hacking.

Would that really change a thing tho? I would then run the sites in a disposable frig that with some luck pays off from a single site and haul the loot back in a nullified Tengu that i've parked in a safe place somewhere meanwhile. That to me actualy sounds the most economicaly reasonable thing to do either way.


There did seem to be more of a "I can't kill a Tengu at my gatecamp or hacking site now, unfair" tone to their complaints. That said a skilled pilot can avoid any gatecamp in a Covert-ops Frigate, and the range of hacking modules and loot mechanic means a Frigate doesn't need to be within 2km of a loot can so can cloak when it wants. The only true edge the Tengu has is offensively and defensively it is better than a Covert-ops.

The way I see it is a covert-ops frigate is used by groups to find the sites and the other members of the group provide protection, keep an eye on d-scan/local and assist with looting, a Tech 3 ship isn't worth the risk if you've got friends that can protect a T2 Frigate and if they meet overwhelming odds it's lose won't hurt too bad (30 million isk fitted?). A Tengu is the ship for a solo explorer to feel a little safer in but faces a bigger lose in sp and isk if caught. Even a Tengu can't compensate for an unskiiled pilot in null. (500 million isk fitted?)

As I said back here if you give the Frigates fixed role bonuses to hacking they beat the Tengu as you'd get you're +10 virus strenght even at covert-ops level 1, but if the Tech 3 was per level (+2 virus strenght) you need to train to match the frigate and can lose that bonus with the ship.

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.
Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#388 - 2013-05-31 14:41:13 UTC
So I've swapped over to the Helios now that it has the +10 virus strength bonus instead of the Imicus.

Never really had a problem with the failure cruisers in the Imicus because of it's 4 drones, however the Helios only has 1, and I've been at this for about 8 minutes now and am currently wishing someone would come along and end my life.

Are the cruisers staying in?
CCP Bayesian
#389 - 2013-05-31 14:43:31 UTC
The failure cruisers are definitely going away.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#390 - 2013-05-31 14:46:54 UTC
Raven Solaris wrote:
And I just realised something, will the Gnosis get a +5 to Virus Strength?

Edit - What about the Echelon?

The Echelon doesn't really need a bonus cause its Sansha codebreaker has much stronger stats than even a T2 analyzer.
Kor'el Izia
#391 - 2013-05-31 14:47:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kor'el Izia
Current exploration system has you doing one minigame(scanning) and then rolling dice(module) in order to get loot, but you'll get it if you have patience and cunning.

Next system will have you do one minigame(scanning), followed by another minigame(hacking) followed by a wild goose chase with exploding gooses(can spew), ultimately leaving you with less loot than what you worked hard for to get.

Second system is more bearable if the gooses don't explode.
CCP Bayesian
#392 - 2013-05-31 14:57:53 UTC
Kor'el Izia, there are also no NPCs in the sites (except where they haven't been updated) and we've doubled the loot in them as well as adding some good rare items.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Naomi Hale
#393 - 2013-05-31 14:57:55 UTC
Solkara Starlock wrote:
What I mean that it doesn't make sense is that if someone hacks into a computer or mainframe or whatever, the result of a succesfull hack is access to that computer or mainframe. Not triggering some exploding mechanic. That sounds more like triggering a defensive system to protect the content.

I was working under the assumption that we were hacking an airlock release, delivery bay or access panel, and success exposed the contents to vacuum, blowing it out into space, failure locked the hatch and the system kicking you out.

I think we'd have little luck hacking a computer bigger than our ships, also blueprints and datacores are physical objects (disks, usb sticks, hard-drive etc), they need cargo space, we aren't copying the data to our ship's computer, are we?

But like I said, that was my assumption of what was occurring, it could be wrong.

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.
Kor'el Izia
#394 - 2013-05-31 15:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kor'el Izia
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Kor'el Izia, there are also no NPCs in the sites (except where they haven't been updated) and we've doubled the loot in them as well as adding some good rare items.


That is correct, you doubled them back to the level we had before, what a solo explorer could expect to get. Had you not doubled the loot it would've been half of what we have today.

Edit: With regards to the NPC's you swapped them for the hacking game as far as I see, which is an obstacle keeping you from the loot. Some obstacles are good, if they are in relation to the loot
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#395 - 2013-05-31 15:18:36 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:

I've read these threads, read countless reviews and watched many youtube trials, and I've yet to find anyone that actually likes the loot spew (ofc, maybe you can find just a few somewhere). No one, so far as I've seen, likes twitch games, needless clicking, randomness, etc. Yes, you've made improvements in the right direction, but it seems like the overwhelming consensus here is the best direction is to remove the loot spew, focus on the hacking game to make it more strategy-based, and find another way to make it optionally co-op.

That said, I'm very positive about the new exploration sites. Why? Because when I watch videos of people running them, they have limited time to check dscan, pay attention to local, and they spend a long time in space, etc. Twisted


Thanks, I just went through and tallied up the responses in the past five pages to see what the spread was of people recounting their feelings towards this feature. I counted posts that talked about the scattering specifically as it exists today and ignored replies or speculation (and dev posts). I got:

Negative: 6
Positive: 6
Neutral: 5

At least from my sense of the feedback we've come along way from the original very negative impressions.

This is why we need actual polls built into the forums.

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Elena Morin'staal
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#396 - 2013-05-31 15:19:41 UTC
I might be a minority, but I like the new hacking/spew mechanics.

Hacking makes it less percentage based than before, as I can try and avoid firewalls and the like, as opposed to just sitting there until the module gets a success.

As for spew, it has good and bad parts. I like the idea - you've hacked open the pressurized cargo bay, and the vacuum of space pulls everything out. I even like that you can't get everything that spews - BUT, and its a big but, you have to be able to either get enough to make it worthwhile, or at least let the pilot choose what to go after. I don't like a mechanic where I click containers at random and try to get as much junk as possible and hope I get a good can. But I do like a system where I see the spew, and make a beeline straight to something that looks juicy.

I'd rather be able to try and get 80% of good loot by cherry picking than it being pot luck. I don't mind junk loot, but it should be after you've tried to get something good - you then use up whatever time is left to cram as much in as possible.

So far, with the changes, I do like where its going. Just with I could find more relic sites in Heimatar on Sisi.... all I find a Data :D
Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#397 - 2013-05-31 15:23:14 UTC
Elena Morin'staal wrote:

As for spew, it has good and bad parts. I like the idea - you've hacked open the pressurized cargo bay, and the vacuum of space pulls everything out. I even like that you can't get everything that spews - BUT, and its a big but, you have to be able to either get enough to make it worthwhile, or at least let the pilot choose what to go after. I don't like a mechanic where I click containers at random and try to get as much junk as possible and hope I get a good can. But I do like a system where I see the spew, and make a beeline straight to something that looks juicy.

I'd rather be able to try and get 80% of good loot by cherry picking than it being pot luck. I don't mind junk loot, but it should be after you've tried to get something good - you then use up whatever time is left to cram as much in as possible.

So far, with the changes, I do like where its going. Just with I could find more relic sites in Heimatar on Sisi.... all I find a Data :D


Only way to "cherry pick" currently is to cargo scan the hackable containers and then go for containers that should have what you want.

Shiny blueprints in there? Go straight for data cans.
Armour plates? Materials (or Parts, or both, not sure yet.)
etc.

It's fairly easy to get what you want now, but I still can't say I enjoy zooming in and rapidly clicking on tiny boxes.
blink alt
Doomheim
#398 - 2013-05-31 15:39:50 UTC
Enjoying the role bonus on the covops now. The rewards being tweaked back quite a bit also feels fine. However, with the loot being tweaked backed and the difficulty of the puzzles generally increased at the same time makes it pretty tough to feel good about. Never failed so many puzzles. Hope it continues to get tweaked.
Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#399 - 2013-05-31 15:50:21 UTC
Elena Morin'staal wrote:

As for spew, it has good and bad parts. I like the idea - you've hacked open the pressurized cargo bay, and the vacuum of space pulls everything out. I even like that you can't get everything that spews - BUT, and its a big but, you have to be able to either get enough to make it worthwhile, or at least let the pilot choose what to go after. I don't like a mechanic where I click containers at random and try to get as much junk as possible and hope I get a good can. But I do like a system where I see the spew, and make a beeline straight to something that looks juicy.

I'd rather be able to try and get 80% of good loot by cherry picking than it being pot luck. I don't mind junk loot, but it should be after you've tried to get something good - you then use up whatever time is left to cram as much in as possible.

You can pick containers based on name ('scrap' vs. 'data'), and there's been IME enough time to pick between them.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
Seth Asthereun
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#400 - 2013-05-31 16:04:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Seth Asthereun
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Sheena Tzash wrote:

To me I feel that if your being some master hacker who is trying to get the goodies from inside an encrypted vault you wouldn't want the results to be splashed all over space.

You wouldn't see someone hack into a bank and set it up so that all the money inside the bank vault would be blasted into the sky - yeah its done the job of getting the loot but its in such an ineffective method and most likely means that you lose a good amount of the loot you've worked hard to get.


This. Bayes, you keep asking for people to 'splain it to you like you're five years old, as if it's some big mystery while people find the loot spew mechaninc annoying and stupid. Andreus said all that needs to be said about it in his earlier post. Others have repeated his same points in different words. It's all been said, and people have been saying it all since this mechanic was first proposed, over and over and over.

You obviously put a lot of work into implementing this, and it sucks when people don't say nice things about something you worked hard on. But you can't say you weren't warned that people would hate it. Obviously we're now the point where you're personally attached to the mechanic, so there is not really any point in complaining about it anymore, or trying to explain to you why it sucks. You'll just keep figuring out ways to not get why people dislike it, because you think it's cool, and you don't want to think about scrapping or majorly reworking something you worked hard on and thought people would love.


Actually this feature has primarily been developed by CCP Prime. I came up with, helped design and made the hacking mechanics for the vast majority of this release. Obviously we act collaboratively in lots of aspects but I'm not here to defend my baby if that's what you're implying. I just happen to be the person on the team who is on the forums the most so end up being a spokesman for the team.

I'm prompting people to explain in their own words why they think something isn't fun in case they have new insights. Making the assumption that I know why they don't like something when they haven't said would be arrogant. It also prompts people to add more constructive detail. Nothing about acting like a five year old or being to stupid to know that people are saying similar things.


I can explain why i don't like it in 3 points:

-Beacuse it's repetitive and everytime the same. You can return that the pattern changes every time and that you are adding encyptors etc etc, but will still be the same, and each site is losing his uniqueness.why archeology has became the same of hacking? Is it true that as it is on tranquillity now is not much better and doesn't offer a lot of distinction but it's till more then the new method. As written some post above "hacking" is a tool to access somekind of "mainframe" and then through this do something that is certainly not making cans explode. And well archeology is..... no longer archeology, you can remove the skill and give us the sp back

-Because it should be an "expansion" not a BETA. But it seems that most of the content of this patch is a "we are sorry we can't do it in time for the release" and it is a behaviour that i can't stand. You can mess up with things when you have a real new solution not one that is "en train de" as you did with AI, with 5% resistence bonus, with exploration..

-Because I personally expected a better job with exploration, with increasing depth both in probbing and new sites but all i got seems more an ipad game than a part of EVE online.