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[Odyssey] Small Navy Cap Boosters

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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-05-28 18:07:45 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
  • The exceptional performance of certain missile systems (most notably HAMs and Rockets) stand out among the things we'll need to look closely at when we next tweak those weapon systems

    • Sorry for the diplo answers but as this thread proves, it's easy for miscommunication to occur if we're not careful.




    Aren't these exceptional performances the effect of some cause like ships bonus rather than missile it self?

    Just a thought because seems HAM's are mostly performing well in some hulls with specific bonus that might be a bit high, and by this I specially think at T1 ships level.
    This needs attention even more closely because of many misconceptions about ships bonus tiers skills and whatnot, Tengu being the most visible prove of many of these misconceptions/understanding.

    removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #82 - 2013-05-28 18:13:01 UTC
    Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
  • The exceptional performance of certain missile systems (most notably HAMs and Rockets) stand out among the things we'll need to look closely at when we next tweak those weapon systems

    • Sorry for the diplo answers but as this thread proves, it's easy for miscommunication to occur if we're not careful.




    Aren't these exceptional performances the effect of some cause like ships bonus rather than missile it self?

    Just a thought because seems HAM's are mostly performing well in some hulls with specific bonus that might be a bit high, and by this I specially think at T1 ships level.
    This needs attention even more closely because of many misconceptions about ships bonus tiers skills and whatnot, Tengu being the most visible prove of many of these misconceptions/understanding.



    No what he means is why in the hell do HAMS have the same range as Torps??? and rockets occupy the space where HAMS should be closer to.

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #83 - 2013-05-28 18:22:23 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Moonaura wrote:

    This can be found in the Minmitar Battleship changes, specifically quoted from the Typhoon changes... it's been there for weeks.

    We had a look at both of them, decided to change cruise and not to change torps.

    Moonaura wrote:
    Torpedos badly need fixing. They are 'terrible' at hitting below battleship size ships. They don't even do full damage against a stationary, large signature battleship. And unlike gunnery, which has tracking computers etc, there are no modules for affecting their ability to hit anything smaller. T2 Torpedos versions are far worse than faction because of the mechanics of how they work. Only really good for POS bashing.

    In short, without doubt, the worst weapon platform in the game.

    From this I have to assume that you haven't used torps since we buffed them significantly in Retribution. Give them a try again, you'll find they are much improved since we made all skills apply to short range missiles and buffed their T2 ammo.


    Fozzie

    Any time scale on missiles rebalance for TD's etc?
    And please tell me you will nerf HAM range after looking at torps?


    In an attempt to avoid misunderstanding, I'm generally going to decline to give timeframes for anything that isn't committed to a specific development sprint schedule.

    So all I'll say is that:
  • There are no plans to change the relationship between Ewar and missiles or change HAMs in Odyssey
  • Providing a balanced method of disrupting missile users is still something we want to do at some point
  • The exceptional performance of certain missile systems (most notably HAMs and Rockets) stand out among the things we'll need to look closely at when we next tweak those weapon systems

    • Sorry for the diplo answers but as this thread proves, it's easy for miscommunication to occur if we're not careful.


    Could you possibly get back on topic and share your reasoning for Small/medium ASB's needing a buff?

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #84 - 2013-05-28 18:30:14 UTC
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:

    Could you possibly get back on topic and share your reasoning for Small/medium ASB's needing a buff?


    as i recall when they nerfed asb medium eneded up being shafted because there was no small navy boosters versions for them...

    now that they have been added medium asb should be on par with the other sizes...

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #85 - 2013-05-28 18:59:42 UTC
    MeBiatch wrote:
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:

    Could you possibly get back on topic and share your reasoning for Small/medium ASB's needing a buff?


    as i recall when they nerfed asb medium eneded up being shafted because there was no small navy boosters versions for them...

    now that they have been added medium asb should be on par with the other sizes...


    They really aren't bad...

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    Alticus C Bear
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #86 - 2013-05-28 21:38:17 UTC
    I can see how you think this rounds out cap boosters and fair enough Navy 25 will benefit the under used SASB, but this change is really all about the Navy 50 booster and is basically an unneeded buff to MASB.

    By my calculations over heated unrigged MASB is now better than overheated SAAR + 2x Nano pumps for around 38 seconds (basically the whole of a frigate fight).

    Overheated unrigged MASB is not far away from providing the same Hitpoint boost as a MSE or a 400RT plate plus one of their respective extending rig.

    Those figures are based on raw hitpoints and so do not even account for the fact that ASB fits normally fit resist rigs providing even better EHP boosts.

    Feels like we are back at armour tanking 1.25.

    Breacher and Hookbill are even getting EHP buffs, I did not even think the merlin resist nerf was really required before, now it very much is.
    Colt Blackhawk
    Doomheim
    #87 - 2013-05-28 22:14:19 UTC
    Well this is at least a massive Hawk and Breacher buff.
    We really needed those cap boosters. But maybe we should adjust also the ships who mostly benefit from it first?!

    [09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
    Sergeant Acht Scultz
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #88 - 2013-05-28 22:22:41 UTC
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    No what he means is why in the hell do HAMS have the same range as Torps??? and rockets occupy the space where HAMS should be closer to.



    It's a medium size weapon system and as such is rather in line with other weapons systems except medium rails being exceptionally terrible.

    Missiles use BCU's and...BCU's+rigs, other weapon systems use DMG mods+tracking enhancers+rigs, thus is balanced from my point of view since I can and use all of those.
    Now for the main point, being the exceptional performances in terms of ships used and using those there are several causes to this, from number of players already skilled for Drakes and Drake new bonus.
    However the considered so "exceptional " performance is not even on the TOP20, thus doesn't need that much of tweaks.

    Cerberus can spew those at stupid ranges but again it's normal it's a T2 specialized ship that actually has not that much dps or overall very good, Tengus benefit quite well from these bonus but again for a T3 ship it's normal and rather balanced.

    On topic: yay again to navy cap boosters.

    Some concerns about AAR and ASB unbalance at S and M size with this small but so important change that will very probably make my armor frigates and cruisers fit shield more than ever.
    CCP needs to make sure those AAR's are getting in line quite fast.

    removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
    Vaihto Ehto
    #89 - 2013-05-29 10:34:10 UTC
    I can't but agree with those who wonder why on earth need MASB setups be buffed? Stuff like dual MASB Hawks are already way too strong, imho.

    OT:
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:

    EDIT:

    Also you should have used your time to nerf long range ammo.. scorch is mentally handicapped (Stupid profanity filter)


    Scorch is very good. Pulse lasers as a whole, even with Scorch, are far from OP and easily crippled by neuts/TDs. T1 long range ammo obviously needs fixing, though.

    Why would you not use an alt to post on the forums?
    Sal Landry
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #90 - 2013-05-29 11:47:21 UTC
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    No what he means is why in the hell do HAMS have the same range as Torps??? and rockets occupy the space where HAMS should be closer to.


    I've been playing for about two years and have seen the "Why do HAMs and torps have the same range" question many times, and this thread is the first time I've ever seen someone say that the way to fix this was to nerf HAM range.
    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #91 - 2013-05-29 13:38:08 UTC
    Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    No what he means is why in the hell do HAMS have the same range as Torps??? and rockets occupy the space where HAMS should be closer to.



    It's a medium size weapon system and as such is rather in line with other weapons systems except medium rails being exceptionally terrible.

    Missiles use BCU's and...BCU's+rigs, other weapon systems use DMG mods+tracking enhancers+rigs, thus is balanced from my point of view since I can and use all of those.
    Now for the main point, being the exceptional performances in terms of ships used and using those there are several causes to this, from number of players already skilled for Drakes and Drake new bonus.
    However the considered so "exceptional " performance is not even on the TOP20, thus doesn't need that much of tweaks.

    Cerberus can spew those at stupid ranges but again it's normal it's a T2 specialized ship that actually has not that much dps or overall very good, Tengus benefit quite well from these bonus but again for a T3 ship it's normal and rather balanced.

    On topic: yay again to navy cap boosters.

    Some concerns about AAR and ASB unbalance at S and M size with this small but so important change that will very probably make my armor frigates and cruisers fit shield more than ever.
    CCP needs to make sure those AAR's are getting in line quite fast.


    So you're disagreeing with Fozzie and saying they don't need a range nerf considering T1 HAMS have almost the same range as the T2 ammo on guns like barrage and scorch and null?
    range mods is something they will add to missiles in the form of TE's/TC's but saying they are normal for their size since they have the same range as torps (battleship) weapon is just plain wrong.

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    Cearain
    Plus 10 NV
    #92 - 2013-05-29 14:39:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
    Alticus C Bear wrote:
    I can see how you think this rounds out cap boosters and fair enough Navy 25 will benefit the under used SASB, but this change is really all about the Navy 50 booster and is basically an unneeded buff to MASB.

    By my calculations over heated unrigged MASB is now better than overheated SAAR + 2x Nano pumps for around 38 seconds (basically the whole of a frigate fight).

    Overheated unrigged MASB is not far away from providing the same Hitpoint boost as a MSE or a 400RT plate plus one of their respective extending rig.

    Those figures are based on raw hitpoints and so do not even account for the fact that ASB fits normally fit resist rigs providing even better EHP boosts.

    Feels like we are back at armour tanking 1.25.

    Breacher and Hookbill are even getting EHP buffs, I did not even think the merlin resist nerf was really required before, now it very much is.



    Decent points but IMO on a frigate a medium slot is more valuable than a low slot.

    Moroever Damage controls benefit armor tanks slightly more. So I think armor tanks will not be bad for frigates (prolly better) even after this change.

    Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
    Alticus C Bear
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #93 - 2013-05-29 21:43:29 UTC
    Cearain wrote:
    Alticus C Bear wrote:
    I can see how you think this rounds out cap boosters and fair enough Navy 25 will benefit the under used SASB, but this change is really all about the Navy 50 booster and is basically an unneeded buff to MASB.

    By my calculations over heated unrigged MASB is now better than overheated SAAR + 2x Nano pumps for around 38 seconds (basically the whole of a frigate fight).

    Overheated unrigged MASB is not far away from providing the same Hitpoint boost as a MSE or a 400RT plate plus one of their respective extending rig.

    Those figures are based on raw hitpoints and so do not even account for the fact that ASB fits normally fit resist rigs providing even better EHP boosts.

    Feels like we are back at armour tanking 1.25.

    Breacher and Hookbill are even getting EHP buffs, I did not even think the merlin resist nerf was really required before, now it very much is.



    Decent points but IMO on a frigate a medium slot is more valuable than a low slot.

    Moroever Damage controls benefit armor tanks slightly more. So I think armor tanks will not be bad for frigates (prolly better) even after this change.


    True, but this is one of the reasons I based my initial analysis on the SAAR with 2x nanopumps against a MASB, I felt that was a fair and balanced assessment as rarely is MASB going to have a invuln field but may have resist rigs and balance seemed to change around 27seconds.

    Those two extra cycles that really only give about 5 seconds of additional tank actually give enough tank to change the tipping point for a SAAR + 2x nanopumps from 27seconds (MASB with normal 50’s) to 38 seconds (with navy 50’s).

    That’s just the comparison to the SAAR.

    Overheated ASB with one boost from raw cap at the end will add 1606 hitpoints, this compares to the MSEII + Extender rig hitpoint addition of 1509, 1735 with two extender rigs (this is the same as 400mm RT with two trimarks) and it provides that boost in around 23seconds.
    0racle
    Galactic Rangers
    #94 - 2013-05-31 08:39:40 UTC
    Jureth22 wrote:
    Jack bubu wrote:
    dual ASB hawks supreme


    that is because idk,you are bad and you try to solo them?the same thing you could say about maelstroms or 10mn hawks with c-type booster and super expensive fitts


    I don't know why people ***** them out anyway. They rarely get much of an opportunity to focus on raising resists.
    So just keep hitting their weakest with rockets on a vengeance and it's game over.

    Dual rep vengeance supreme
    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #95 - 2013-05-31 13:10:51 UTC
    Sal Landry wrote:
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    No what he means is why in the hell do HAMS have the same range as Torps??? and rockets occupy the space where HAMS should be closer to.


    I've been playing for about two years and have seen the "Why do HAMs and torps have the same range" question many times, and this thread is the first time I've ever seen someone say that the way to fix this was to nerf HAM range.


    is that good or bad? :P

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    Gypsio III
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #96 - 2013-05-31 13:54:09 UTC
    I think a lot of these HAM/torp range issues will be solved by the eventual introduction of missile range modules, along with tweaks to base ranges as necessary. Of course, we'll the need mysterious anti-missile ewar at the same time (not as a TD effect or script, please...).
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #97 - 2013-05-31 17:04:09 UTC
    Gypsio III wrote:
    I think a lot of these HAM/torp range issues will be solved by the eventual introduction of missile range modules, along with tweaks to base ranges as necessary. Of course, we'll the need mysterious anti-missile ewar at the same time (not as a TD effect or script, please...).


    it would take alot of work but it would be cool to see something like point defense lazors or advanced chaff...

    i would take the fire wall concept but make it chance based and a mod on the ship...

    so a base mod without any skills has a 15% chance to kill all incoming missiles withing a a few km radius but only works once per cycle which could be like 15 seconds.

    you could have skill that increase the chance base and also reduce the cycle time. and also meta units will have a larger area of effect.

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Flyinghotpocket
    Small Focused Memes
    Ragequit Cancel Sub
    #98 - 2013-05-31 17:20:54 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hey guys, I expect this will be the last sticky I place there for Odyssey 1.0. Smaller change, although I couldn't find anywhere better to put it. Smile

    We're making some changes to the availability of Navy Cap boosters, adding Navy versions of all the remaining cap booster sizes and slightly adjusting the costs of the 100s and 150s to bring them into line with the rest.

    We're adding Navy 25, 50 and 75 boosters available in all the FW LP stores. These should be especially useful for users of small and medium ASBs.

    We are also increasing the LP and isk costs of the 100 and 150 sizes, with 100s rising from 100LP and 100000isk to 250LP and 250000isk, and 150s rising from 250LP and 250000isk to 375LP and 375000isk. This change brings them in line with the scaling applied to the costs of the other Navy cap boosters.

    All of these changes are on SISI now.



    can you bring back the micro cap booster plz?

    Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
    Aglais
    Ice-Storm
    #99 - 2013-05-31 23:12:29 UTC
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
  • The exceptional performance of certain missile systems (most notably HAMs and Rockets) stand out among the things we'll need to look closely at when we next tweak those weapon systems

    • Sorry for the diplo answers but as this thread proves, it's easy for miscommunication to occur if we're not careful.




    Aren't these exceptional performances the effect of some cause like ships bonus rather than missile it self?

    Just a thought because seems HAM's are mostly performing well in some hulls with specific bonus that might be a bit high, and by this I specially think at T1 ships level.
    This needs attention even more closely because of many misconceptions about ships bonus tiers skills and whatnot, Tengu being the most visible prove of many of these misconceptions/understanding.



    No what he means is why in the hell do HAMS have the same range as Torps??? and rockets occupy the space where HAMS should be closer to.


    STOP.

    STOP TRYING TO GET HAM AND ROCKET RANGE NERFED. CARACALS WILL NOT SURVIVE BLASTER RANGE. EVER.
    John 1135
    #100 - 2013-06-01 06:02:18 UTC
    Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
    Some concerns about AAR and ASB unbalance at S and M size with this small but so important change that will very probably make my armor frigates and cruisers fit shield more than ever.
    CCP needs to make sure those AAR's are getting in line quite fast.

    Anyone know the cost of running an AAR compared to an ASB? Paste gets expensive!