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Dev Blog: Probe Scanning and other Goodies for Odyssey

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#141 - 2013-05-28 20:58:18 UTC
Carol Krabit wrote:
Yet another change to steer away from the harsh uniqueness into the mirage of a demographic that is not appealed by complexity. Other games got it covered, CCP. Let it go.
The real problem with catering to the casual crowd--and that's not to say that the casual crowd shouldn't be welcomed in Eve--is that casual players just don't stick around for long with any game.

Unfortunately, there will be consequences if CCP begins to cater to this crowd. Sure, there will be a short term bump for the casual playerbase in Eve, but they'll move on. Casual players by definition don't invest the time and effort to play games, much less to master them. In the end, the only thing that'll have resulted from changing the game to attract casuals is that casual players will have moved on as they were going to anyway and hardcore players will be turned off by the dumbing down of their game, causing them to likely move on as well.

I'm not writing a doom-and-gloom post to be dramatic. I'm merely pointing out that other games--MMOs--who statistically have catered to a casual playerbase to draw in more players (WoW, for example), have consistently gotten burned by the casuals moving on to other games and the hardcore being left unfulfilled and moving on as well.

What hurts new players from talking to other players in local about scanning tips? What harm is there for us to direct new players to Corps that welcome newbies and show them the ropes? All that does is build strong relationships in game, and in return, make it more fun and engaging. Eve is a social game. The fact that it's difficult spurs conversation and builds friendships.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Acks
RONA Corporation
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#142 - 2013-05-28 20:58:31 UTC
Equimanthorn wrote:
I have been scanning since scanning was an option in EVE. Mara hit the nail on the head. Please quit changing this system. Not everyone is supposed to do everything in EvE. There are tonnes of crap I suck at in this game and that's just the way it is, but I am great at scanning. I was great at the old system and the system before that.

Christ I'll adapt but EvE is interesting because it is hard.

Mara Rinn wrote:
Deep Space Probes were very useful for filtering out signatures that we weren't interested in paying further attention to. Most of the functionality of DSP is now lost: the system scanner display only shows the presence of "stuff", the signal strength having been removed from that display. The DSP was previously useful for saving time, and was in itself a decent reason to train Astrometrics 5 (the other very good reason being that more probes in space means better quality probing, faster pinpointing, and bragging rights).

The automatic recall of probes means that there is less chance of people being stranded in unknown space and having to find their way out by contacting locals, asking for help on the forums, or suiciding their way home. You are actively removing consequences. Sure, you have lots of new players complaining that the consequences are too severe: this is a reflection on their unreadiness to face loss, rather than loss in the game being a bad thing.

So with each little hand-holding exercise you undertake, you are going to remove the opportunities that players have to learn about loss and failure, meaning that their first PvP loss is going to be all the more traumatic.

EVE needs the little niggles to help people cope and learn to stand on their own two feet and/or establish friendships with people who complement their skill sets: everything from leaving that distribution mission cargo 6 jumps away, losing probes when jumping through wormholes, through to forgetting to insure their combat ship before heading out to look for a fight.

If filtering out signals using a DSP wasn't an intended mechanic, a better solution would be to randomise the signal strength of the signatures present in space, and to review the signal strengths of signatures that explorers have tabulated over the years. If you notice that there are only 12 categories of signature, perhaps that's an indication that you need to smear the possible signature strengths over a larger potential signal strength range.

Deep Space Probes were also useful for quickly narrowing down groups of signatures in very large systems (anything larger than 30AU radius). This functionality is partially replaced by the system scanner overview, so I'll hold my judgement.

Ultimately though, I feel your attempts to "simplify" content and make it "more accessible" are going to end up dumbing the game down, removing the consequences of failure, and turning EVE Online into "WoW in space."




This ^^^^ A thousand times this. Stop shaving all the corners off everything to make it NUB SAFE™. Other than climbing into a Titan, there are very few advantages to being a truly grizzled, bitter old vet. Every patch / "expansion" you Nerf the ever living hell out of EVE to make it safe for all the troglodyte Xbox button mashers out there with 5 min attention spans.

You come out with these "focus themes" like "Exploration". You have all these pie in the sky perfect world ideas, and charge down the road. In that process great ideas get worn down to good ideas that get worn down to meh ideas. Changes are made to the existing system to facilitate the New Shiny™. inevitably you run out of time or resources and tie off your work. There is always the intention to come back after the current release and expand / expound on the stuff that was not finsihed or fully implemented as intended. The reality though is that the next release will have a different theme and todays New Shiny™ is forgotten or abandoned for the sake of the next New Shiny™.


  1. YOU NEED TO DEVELOP IDEAS.
  2. GET FEEDBACK.
  3. LISTEN TO FEEDBACK.
  4. MAKE A PROTOTYPE ON YOUR TEST SERVER.
  5. GET FEEDBACK.
  6. LISTEN TO FEEDBACK.
  7. ITERATE
  8. REPEAT 5-7 UNTIL IT IS RIGHT
  9. RELEASE A FINISHED, FULLY DEVELOPED, FULLY TESTED, PLAYER REQUESTED, PLAYER APPROVED FEATURE THAT DOES NOT NERF EVE INTO A COMA


If you take nothing else away from this post please just take these two things:
GET FEEDBACK.
LISTEN TO FEEDBACk
Steijn
Quay Industries
#143 - 2013-05-28 20:59:00 UTC
Komen wrote:
Automatically recalling probes? Can we toggle this off? There are applications for dropping probes in a system, leaving, coming back and reconnecting intentionally that I'd like to not lose please.


Thats what happens when people who dont play the game are left to change things.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#144 - 2013-05-28 20:59:45 UTC
Heh, today I saw response from Greyscale posted somewhere, maybe at Testing subforum - that they want to limit or not extend number of options from client so I wouldn't count on anything being customizable :)

Invalid signature format
Lirinas
B.C.C.O.F Investments
#145 - 2013-05-28 21:08:51 UTC
Back on Page 5, post #92 I have a more-detailed list of my feelings with the proposed changes. The only thing I didn't list there was that I also don't like the idea of auto-returning of probes. Even I would occasionally will leave probes out after jumping/docking to mark a place on the map.

I was hoping to see the system expanded, not overly simplified. I remember reading some good ideas on the old forums shortly after Apocrypha was released. Sadly I can't find that old link, and the only idea I remember was a disposable type of proximity probe).

Chitsa Jason wrote:
Lirinas wrote:
The impression I'm getting, with the lack of any insightful Dev comments is that we're getting these changes whether we like them or not.

I do hope you can get their attention Chitsa, and make them aware of the general dissatisfaction we have for these ideas.


As I mentioned I will do my best. The more feedback I gather through various information mediums the better.

So if you do not like something or like something in these changes please post your ideas here or mail me. Being constructive would help my job a lot.
Enthropic
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#146 - 2013-05-28 21:30:14 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Dumbing down the game. Not cool.
E'lyna Mis Dimaloun
REUNI0N
Against ALL Authorities
#147 - 2013-05-28 21:33:05 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
As I mentioned I will do my best. The more feedback I gather through various information mediums the better.

So if you do not like something or like something in these changes please post your ideas here or mail me. Being constructive would help my job a lot.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=233600

This thread is 20 days old. It is 69 pages. Is that not enough feedback for you? Why do we have to repost our criticism again in this thread? Unless of course you didn't read that thread completely, or never noticed it, or heard about these changes just now. In which case, wtf are you doing on the CSM!
Patrick Baboli
Mad Science Union Local 42
#148 - 2013-05-28 21:34:11 UTC
no auto recall, it makes no sense for probes that are out of time to return to your cargo hold, it makes even less sense that the auto recall wouldn't hold you up on gates and holes, cause that is a thing that would make sense. let us launch probes one at a time, and let them expire, otherwise no-one will buy probes anymore, and there goes sisters missions.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#149 - 2013-05-28 21:43:38 UTC
As far as auto-returning probes leading to fewer sales: I wonder how many probes are lost by timeouts & left-behinds versus the probe-carrying ship being blown up?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#150 - 2013-05-28 21:50:54 UTC
Zorok wrote:
Roime wrote:
There's so much **** in these changes that the few good usability improvements don't even feel nice.

Disappointing tbh.




I hear ya man.... This is the first time I have considered truly giving up Eve...The monocle-gate scandal is nothing compared to their haphazard approach to these game-breaking changes they are making. I don't understand why they are trying to ruin certain aspects of the game...I agree that they should remove the regular asteroid belts and make them anomalies since that will take a bite out of botters but for them to simply make grav sites also anomalies makes no sense. I'm very disappointed with you CCP. X

Gravimetric (Ore) Sites and the others (Radar/Magnetometric/Ladar) should never become accessible without probes. Why did I train probes in the first place? Gravimetric cosmic signatures are one of the few relatively safe areas for nul mining. After the patch, what will probes be able to find that d-scan won't? From the sounds of it, all the probe skills should be reimbursed.

Probes are a poor choice for nerf CCP. While you are at it, nerf sanctums down to let frigates make 50 mil isk per tick, remove training requirements for doing Planetary Interaction or just remove PI and moon goo from game altogether, add a cloaking sensor probe for finding cloaked ships, and make the cloaked ships show up on scanner once they have been in system for 20 minutes. Add all that to Odyssey too.

Ya know... if you want to make it easier for pvp/ships blown up, reduce the maximum corp/alliance members. That would force a lot of people out of current alliances/corps to make new corps/alliances, and split up the pie into moar pieces. AFAIK, accessibility to nul desirable space is only enforceable with huge alliances with large numbers of corporations and/or blue alliances. Limit the size of corp/alliance members, limit the number of blue alliances, and you force people to pick sides.

Just thinking out loud, but since CCP seems to be doing the same thing and not really thinking things through I thought I would do the same.
Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2013-05-28 21:54:32 UTC
The lure of exploration got me interested in playing EVE after the Apocrypha expansion was released ~4 years ago. I trained the skills on and off for a couple of years, eventually reaching the Holy Grail of Astrometrics 5 when I could finally use 8 probes and the Deep Space Probes. Along the way I explored wormholes that made me lots of ISK, and found my services valuable to PVPers who needed ships scanned down or POSes found and scouted.

The upcoming changes in Odyssey dumb down exploration to the level where a child can do it, and there is very little to be gained by improving your skills or technique. If everyone can launch 8 probes on Day 1 of their EVE life, why have 8 at all? Why not just 1 probe? And if you can no longer forget your probes and leave them behind, or forget to recall them before they expire... why have probes at all? Why not make it a ship built-in function? Use the new modules to make scanning easier and get rid of the Probe Launcher completely.

Do. Not. Want. But going to get this sh*t sammich rammed down my throat anyway. Another solution in search of a problem.
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#152 - 2013-05-28 22:16:12 UTC
Oddyssey will be awsome, can't wait for launch. I've been on the testserver and doing some practising. Twisted
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#153 - 2013-05-28 22:17:24 UTC
Ok, turns out Paradox failed to highlight the best damn feature of the new scanner, and hid the gem inside this controversial chapter and left out the juicy details:

Quote:
The recall and expire options have been changed a bit – recall is now instantaneous and happens automatically on system jump or dock. Probes still have a timer, but instead of being lost when the timer is out, they automatically recall instead. The system remembers your last probe setup before they were automatically recalled so they can be quickly deployed again in the same pattern (by activating the launcher). No more forsaken probes in space!


The system remembers your last probe setup actually means that the system remembers the last used setup no matter how you recall them. Essentially providing the same functionality as custom presets.

One-click cube ftw, probably the top request got fullfilled!

The auto-recall is still pure crap Straight

.
Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2013-05-28 22:28:02 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
... bragging rights... actively removing consequences

Many people don't really understand what "dumb down" means, but this is EXACTLY what it means! Remove the incentive to get better while at the same time making it so even an idiot can't screw it up.

The fabled EVE learning curve (cliff) no longer applies to probe scanning. It's now a grassy plain with nothing but straightaways and flat terrain as far as the eye can see. Mission accomplished? Eliminate the learning "cliff" completely? Is that where we're headed?
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
#155 - 2013-05-28 22:35:09 UTC
Roime wrote:
Ok, turns out Paradox failed to highlight the best damn feature of the new scanner, and hid the gem inside this controversial chapter and left out the juicy details:

Quote:
The recall and expire options have been changed a bit – recall is now instantaneous and happens automatically on system jump or dock. Probes still have a timer, but instead of being lost when the timer is out, they automatically recall instead. The system remembers your last probe setup before they were automatically recalled so they can be quickly deployed again in the same pattern (by activating the launcher). No more forsaken probes in space!


The system remembers your last probe setup actually means that the system remembers the last used setup no matter how you recall them. Essentially providing the same functionality as custom presets.

One-click cube ftw, probably the top request got fullfilled!

The auto-recall is still pure crap Straight



So i can save my pattern by setting it up and then always launching by clicking on the mod only, all well and good.

BUT, if for some reason I decide to try and launch my probes with one of the given default patterns and start probing, now my custom pattern is blown away. it needs to be take a step further so that the custom pattern is static and saved somehow.
Alex Logan
OK Researches And Inventions
#156 - 2013-05-28 22:42:37 UTC
So how the h... Are we supposed to fit the new modules on covops ships? These have a limited slot layout and we cant possibly dedicate slots towards additional scanning modules. Nanos and od's cant be removed from covops.
Tion Barton
Bare Minimum Bandits
I Showed You My Probes... Please Respond...
#157 - 2013-05-28 23:01:56 UTC
Congratulations on altering a feature set in a way that can bring the community together.

Hating all of your ideas and changes is probably the one thing that most Eve players can agree on. I guess that is what happens when you don't care what your customer base wants.

You made a good run of giving lip service to caring about what we want, but I guess you can't be assed to even pretend now.
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2013-05-28 23:02:44 UTC
updating this this from: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2935774#post2935774

Removing grav sites in hi-sec removes the incentive for miners to expend their skills into Exploration¹. Also removes the compromise that gankers need either a scan ship in their gang or fitted probe launcher. (and necessary skills)

I would note that grav sites are highly competed for in hi-sec as they are. These are easily located following downtime. Will there be a corresponding change here? A common practice for many hi-sec mining crews is to remove the high end ores and leave remaining low-end ores. The site does not de-spawn to generate anew elsewhere. Would it not be possible to have the site timeout when there no activity within after an hour or so?

And since it will be asked anyway. Removing grav sites from probing, will there lead the option for skill re-allocation from astrometric investment?

¹ making something easier is not an incentive

Removing one quarter of the functionality with probes (ie gravs) is not retaining "the whole" that you mention in your blog.

I guess it's also time to dump Sister LP and probes, since their market value is about plummet.
Balint Vazsonyi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#159 - 2013-05-28 23:10:45 UTC
What will be required to scan down ships that were 'unscannable' (ish).

Previously, I believe any sensor strength/sig radius < 1.08 required max skills and implants to scan down.

Will this still be the case? If not, is there a ratio where max skills/modules/implants will be required?

Overall I'm all aboard making the game better for new players, I understand that without them we all lose. Experienced players will figure out how to win regardless. Cool
Mstr Wu
Ice Consortium
#160 - 2013-05-28 23:11:14 UTC
Where can I go tell Team Five-0 how stupid it is to put grav sites in anoms instead of putting the new ice belts into sigs?

You're trying to actually SHOWCASE your new idiot-proof scanning system, why not, I don't know, generate a skillpoint sink and make more people actually scan.

Also, wtf, seriously. So now any ******* with with a couple of weeks training time can start cloaky camping grav sites without even being bothered to go through the trouble of scanning it down?

Do you guys actually play this game or do you just read about it?