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Dev Blog: Probe Scanning and other Goodies for Odyssey

First post First post First post
Author
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#61 - 2013-05-28 16:56:09 UTC
Why haven't you done anything with the Astrometric Acquitision skill?

Exploration scanning is so fast that it's pretty pointless to train that skill very high, just so save a silly fraction of a second. I routinely train almost everything to 5, but this particular skill I've chosen to leave at 4, because it simply isn't worth 19 days to save 0.5 seconds.

Please improve the game, so as to give me a good reason to tain Astro. Acquisition to 5!
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2013-05-28 17:00:59 UTC
Midnight Hope wrote:
Logix42 wrote:
Scan probes recalling on jump / dock is ridiculous.

1) You are not keeping true to the core of EVE Online. Actions have consequences If someone leaves probes behind and gets stuck in a wormhole, or has to fly 10 jumps to buy more probes, that is good. Auto-recalling is bad hand holding and fundamentally flawed. Just don't.

2) There are several reasons more experienced pilots may want to leave probes out when they jump. They can act as a decoy to make people think someone is in system. Or you can jump back in and scan again in the exact same position. And I'm sure there are more that I don't regularly use/know about.



This^

Why can't drones be auto-recalled when I jump out of system? Why can't they auto-recall when someone is shooting at them? Why do I have to buy ammo for my guns in the first place?? They should come preloaded with infinite ammo!

The fact that no matter what I do I can't loose any probes is utterly ridiculous.

Let me expand, you are loosing the sense of danger you had in wormholes.The sense of venturing into the unknown, a place where you don't know if you are going to be able to get out (even if no one is there). Now WH space is safe. You can't get stuck.
This is what is lost with this mechanic change.


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Nica Demus
Free Range Logi
Wormhole Society
#63 - 2013-05-28 17:03:53 UTC
First off, WH mining just became so ridiculously dangerous that I'm surprised WH mining sites aren't being accompanied by an enormous buff. It's always been hard to catch miners who are on their toes because they were attentive to dscan, but now -- in a WH system that is bigger than dscan range -- I don't see how they stay safe without someone constantly counting signatures. Please consider keeping WH mining sites as something that needs to be scanned down. The risk / reward is out of balance.

I would like to see the auto-probe recall be an option since as many people have mentioned, there are practical uses for leaving probes behind.

The DSP and the ability to use mixed probes was an integral part of high-level scanning. Identifying signatures by their signature strength just became harder to do and more time consuming. While the pre-set formations and launching multiple probes is handy, it seems as though all of the high-level probing techniques are being removed, and scanning will no longer be based as much on player skill.

Can i ask for a more detailed explanation on why removing the DSP balances scanning? I really don't understand.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#64 - 2013-05-28 17:09:36 UTC
Dumbing down the game. Not cool.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#65 - 2013-05-28 17:10:53 UTC
CCP SoniClover, overall my congratulations to Team Five O for an excellent feature set: I'm looking forward to most of the expansion content that your team has been working on (with obvious exceptions, see the previous 6 pages of this thread, LOL, and my concerns regarding loot spew).

One change I would like to suggest is to use the word "constellation" when referring to groupings of scanner probes, since "formations" is already associated with fleets of space ships. At some future point in time when CCP wishes to implement fleet formations, it might become confusing if you also use "formations" to describe the arrangement of scanner probes in space.

Thank you, and good luck!
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
#66 - 2013-05-28 17:11:13 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Why haven't you done anything with the Astrometric Acquitision skill?

Exploration scanning is so fast that it's pretty pointless to train that skill very high, just so save a silly fraction of a second. I routinely train almost everything to 5, but this particular skill I've chosen to leave at 4, because it simply isn't worth 19 days to save 0.5 seconds.

Please improve the game, so as to give me a good reason to tain Astro. Acquisition to 5!




how about if you take this skill to 5, then your probes (both core and combats) will expand to 256 au? this would be a decent replacement for DSP removal.
Zifrian
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#67 - 2013-05-28 17:13:31 UTC
Changing grav sites to anoms is still a horrible idea. If you want to make scanning easier and more fun for new players, then make grav sites part of this. For instance, the new ice belt system will necessitate the profession, not remove it.

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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#68 - 2013-05-28 17:15:27 UTC
Kitanga wrote:
Salpad wrote:
Why haven't you done anything with the Astrometric Acquitision skill?

Exploration scanning is so fast that it's pretty pointless to train that skill very high, just so save a silly fraction of a second. I routinely train almost everything to 5, but this particular skill I've chosen to leave at 4, because it simply isn't worth 19 days to save 0.5 seconds.

Please improve the game, so as to give me a good reason to tain Astro. Acquisition to 5!




how about if you take this skill to 5, then your probes (both core and combats) will expand to 256 au? this would be a decent replacement for DSP removal.


Careful what you wish for. You're likely to have probes that are permanently stuck at 256AU, and if you want a smaller size, you'll need to launch a different set.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#69 - 2013-05-28 17:16:26 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Why haven't you done anything with the Astrometric Acquitision skill?

Exploration scanning is so fast that it's pretty pointless to train that skill very high, just so save a silly fraction of a second. I routinely train almost everything to 5, but this particular skill I've chosen to leave at 4, because it simply isn't worth 19 days to save 0.5 seconds.

Please improve the game, so as to give me a good reason to tain Astro. Acquisition to 5!


I'll second this sentiment. The speed of getting 100% hits in scanning is too damn high! Lol

If scanning started out at, say, 30 seconds (just lke the system scanner used to for a non-probe scan for anomalies), and Astrometric Acquisition would reduce it by, say, 4 seconds per attempt, we'd be back to 10 seconds for highly skilled probers, 5 seconds if they have the appropriate implants and modules. This would also mean that fleets looking to hunt down ships in space would want to bring a specialist prober in order to quickly find that target.

Having a long initial scan time with a larger decrement per skill level will also add a significant feeling of progress as the player's character becomes better trained and equipped for the role.

Having a minimum scan time of 10 seconds for a prober without the best gear and implants would also increase the window during which d-scan spam must be performed, thus reducing load on the server somewhat, no?
Zifrian
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#70 - 2013-05-28 17:17:44 UTC
I also agree with no auto recall. But if you insist, then why not just make that an option? Default is on....you choose to turn it off. Everyone is happy.

Why does it seem like every change you want to make to the game is all or nothing? One thing that is great about eve is your actions have consequence, good or bad. Why not let us make more decisions not less?

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Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#71 - 2013-05-28 17:18:47 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
One change I would like to suggest is to use the word "constellation" when referring to groupings of scanner probes, since "formations" is already associated with fleets of space ships. At some future point in time when CCP wishes to implement fleet formations, it might become confusing if you also use "formations" to describe the arrangement of scanner probes in space.


I have to disagree here. There are already constellations, and they do not resemble probe configurations in the slightest. I'd prefer configurations (heh), patterns or formations: after all, even if the latter is eventually used for ship formations, at least the analogy is directly accurate.

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#72 - 2013-05-28 17:21:19 UTC
Midnight Hope wrote:
Logix42 wrote:
Scan probes recalling on jump / dock is ridiculous.

1) You are not keeping true to the core of EVE Online. Actions have consequences If someone leaves probes behind and gets stuck in a wormhole, or has to fly 10 jumps to buy more probes, that is good. Auto-recalling is bad hand holding and fundamentally flawed. Just don't.

2) There are several reasons more experienced pilots may want to leave probes out when they jump. They can act as a decoy to make people think someone is in system. Or you can jump back in and scan again in the exact same position. And I'm sure there are more that I don't regularly use/know about.



This^

Why can't drones be auto-recalled when I jump out of system? Why can't they auto-recall when someone is shooting at them? Why do I have to buy ammo for my guns in the first place?? They should come preloaded with infinite ammo!

The fact that no matter what I do I can't loose any probes is utterly ridiculous.

Let me expand, you are loosing the sense of danger you had in wormholes.The sense of venturing into the unknown, a place where you don't know if you are going to be able to get out (even if no one is there). Now WH space is safe. You can't get stuck.
This is what is lost with this mechanic change.

You made an expedition into the amazonian rainforest look like a trip to Disneyland...
Gonna have to quote both of these posters. They speak the truth and CCP ought to take notice.

Auto-recalling probes is a stupid change. You already alert noobs with a popup that says "hey, stupid, you're leaving your probes behind!" That's not good enough? Is reading no longer a required skill in Eve? There's no reason to have probes auto recall, magically and instantly--they shouldn't auto recall at all! It's not a "new player problem" if somebody doesn't read. That's the fault of any player, and it's not your job to make sure people are reading, or since they aren't, hold their hand for them.

If probes can auto recall, then I agree that drones should as well. Or maybe ships could auto-target broadcasted targets, since, you know, new players may not know how to target a broadcast. Hell, the FC should be able to jump for everyone, too, since maybe they didn't get the command to jump.

Just stop with the handholding. Launching all the probes, probe formations? Ok. It was a hassle to click launch probe 8 times. Or to carefully move them into your desired orientation. But recalling them already has a warning. Leave it at that.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#73 - 2013-05-28 17:22:27 UTC
Kitanga wrote:
how about if you take this skill to 5, then your probes (both core and combats) will expand to 256 au? this would be a decent replacement for DSP removal.


The tradeoff that DSP made for their 256AU scan range was a signal strength of 5. Contrast this to a Core Scanner Probe with base strength of 40 or a Combat Scanner Probe with base strength of 20. Thus DSPs are good at picking up far-away signals, but very bad at picking details out. It's difficult to get a 100% hit with DSPs: you would typically only use DSPs for finding a local region of space in which to deploy a tight constellation of core or combat scanner probes.

So there's another way that DSPs could have been nerfed in order to reduce their efficacy as pre-scan filters: increase their signal strength to 20, meaning that there is more variation in cosmic signature signal returns.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#74 - 2013-05-28 17:25:27 UTC
It's getting closer...

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Azia Burgi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#75 - 2013-05-28 17:27:20 UTC
Overall I think these changes are going to spice up exploration. It is certainly going to make it more difficult to find uncontested sites, I guess we will all have to travel even further to get the goodies without finding a damn Tengu already there.

I am concerned about the probe expiry changes, doesn't this effectively kill the build market for probes? To be honest I have thought this mechanic has been broken for some time, it is just more evident now. Once buying your first set of probes there is no incentive to purchase more as the original set will never expire or get used up (unless of course you get blown up).

Probes, even the faction ones, are like T1 laser crystals. They never ever run out. This is surely an oversight?

To fix this I propose you make probes single use by removing the recall button. This will mean you will need to carry a supply of probes on all exploration expeditions.

I personally haven't needed to buy or make any probes for about 3 years.

Azia
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#76 - 2013-05-28 17:28:12 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
EVE needs the little niggles to help people cope and learn to stand on their own two feet and/or establish friendships with people who complement their skill sets: everything from leaving that distribution mission cargo 6 jumps away, losing probes when jumping through wormholes, through to forgetting to insure their combat ship before heading out to look for a fight.


And, in some cases, having their preferred style of game play changed into something they don't like. I'm out of this fight for now.

I'll focus on supporting CCP in the parts of this expansion that I expect to enjoy.
iskflakes
#77 - 2013-05-28 17:29:21 UTC
DSP should not be removed

-

Roime
Shiva Furnace
#78 - 2013-05-28 17:29:38 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:

Just stop with the handholding. Launching all the probes, probe formations? Ok. It was a hassle to click launch probe 8 times. Or to carefully move them into your desired orientation. But recalling them already has a warning. Leave it at that.


Other modules have a setting for auto-repeat. Enabling this functionality would have solved the keypress repetition issue (which wasn't a major issue) while keeping the side effects of launching one probe at a time (your ship and probes are visible on dscan for longer time than Odyssey)



.

Startled Staffer
Enso Corp
#79 - 2013-05-28 17:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Startled Staffer
This is no easy task, as this has to be accomplished while at the same time retaining the functionality of the scan probing as a whole for other users of the system, such as veteran explorers, wormhole dwellers and scouts.

Wormhole miners like me are now unable to look for people that are scouting for a kill...



While the focus this time around was on accessibility and basic mechanics, we feel this is only the tip of the iceberg...

That is pretty funny considering that my highsec mining system is about to lose its ice belt permanently. As in not replaced by the new ice anomalies...



The recall and expire options have been changed a bit – recall is now instantaneous and happens automatically on system jump or dock

Will this prevent me from jumping through a wormhole if I have my probes out? If so, then this can get me killed. I imagine similar concerns for pilots using jump gates and docking. I see it is instant... but don't know if it will cancel the current action (jumping) in order to instantaneously get me my probes back.

I also just don't like t his idea of "handholding" as it has been called. I want people to be forced to make a choice. Eve is all about being smart with your priorities. Do you want to leave right now or get your probes back? because you cant have it both ways. There are supposed to be consequences for being unprepared, and I think you are taking some of them away, even if they are minor.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#80 - 2013-05-28 17:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Auto probe recall is not hand holding, its part of the war on clicks. Drop probes scan, recall, over and over. More often than most other actions when you are exploring. Click click click. Well, now there is one less.

Is there still an "abandon probes" option? And if you do, will "reconnect" get them back?

Edit: Just read that CCP is adding a rule: deactivated probes will not auto-recall. So you can leave probes behind if you wish.

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